Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
We are discussing Sheppard, not the SRT Keiithz. 
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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
nfitz
Superstar
The Sheppard East LRT is (roughly) 1/3 funded by the feds, and 2/3 by the province (not including the new yards, which were originally part of the SRT replacement budget).We are discussing Sheppard, not the SRT Keiithz.
The provincial 2/3 would funded the WWLRT quite nicely. If Scarborough councillors are really of the opinion that they'd prefer nothing over a $1-billion LRT, spending the province's portion on the WWLRT which they did namedrop in the last provincial budget seems reasonable ... as they obviously won't be spending it in Scarborough!
rbt
Senior Member
Probably but there is a chance the Conservatives would redirect funds to something like Gardiner repairs which would take some pressure off Toronto's debt to be able to fund another project.
If Liberals/NDP are running things in December 2015 (it would take that long for Council to make a decision and modify the agreements with the province), then the possibilities are a little more extensive.
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nfitz
Superstar
Not sure what you mean. Toronto has no money in this (other than whatever hundreds of millions of $ that they would have to pay the province to cancel the Sheppard East LRT). If anything, cancelling the LRT might delay other big projects like the Gardiner, as they'd have to get the money from somewhere.
Provincially, the Liberals have a majority government, and the next election is scheduled for October 2018 - a few weeks before the 2018 mayoral election.
Electrify
Senior Member
Their best bet is to lobby to retrofit the Sheppard subway tunnel to operate LRT trains for through routing. Ford had a chance to get a subway in, but rather than getting backers for it and bringing it to council, he sat around and did nothing. Even if Stintz didn't bring it back, the province likely would have scolded Ford for not completing his homework and reverted back anyways.
But since we are reopening old wounds, I did think of something. With Presto we will be able to better track where passengers come to and from. Seeing as the TTC is more integrated than most transit systems, it would be interesting to see how many rides originate from within and around subway or LRT stops compared to those who connect to them from perpendicular bus routes. Though the immediate density along Sheppard is lacking, the buses may boost ridership to levels which surprise transit planners.
Also note that Bayview and Leslie have relatively infrequent service, so their numbers do not necessarily reflect what the passenger volumes of subway stops at Victoria Park North, Warden North, and Kennedy North may be like.
But since we are reopening old wounds, I did think of something. With Presto we will be able to better track where passengers come to and from. Seeing as the TTC is more integrated than most transit systems, it would be interesting to see how many rides originate from within and around subway or LRT stops compared to those who connect to them from perpendicular bus routes. Though the immediate density along Sheppard is lacking, the buses may boost ridership to levels which surprise transit planners.
Also note that Bayview and Leslie have relatively infrequent service, so their numbers do not necessarily reflect what the passenger volumes of subway stops at Victoria Park North, Warden North, and Kennedy North may be like.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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Eglinton to Sheppard should be cut and cover if it comes to that. So should sheppard east, if it comes to that.If I die and the Relief Line doesn't go north of Eglinton then either: 1) Toronto seriously fu*ked up or 2) I somehow managed to terminate my life far ahead of my planned expiration date
Absolutely. Frankly, this whole yonge thing is on the province. The fact people from Vaughan, Richmond Hill and Markham are making the decision is not helping.
I adore this 44 north. That is all. Amazing plan.
So salsa this is real. We said this would happen if Bloor Danforth got approved.
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rbt
Senior Member
Toronto has a billion+ of future debt going into Gardiner.
Redirecting federal money toward that, a project the conservatives might support (helps 905 suburbs and their pro-car agenda, and they like to repair things), would free up money within Toronto for other things.
No, it's not smart, but it is probably doable.
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rbt
Senior Member
The Champlain bridge funding did that, and an election is coming that may see the Conservatives go from being in power to 3rd in line just like the Liberals a few years ago. That's bound to cause an unusual amount of cooperation and vote buying.
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
The fact that the Gardiner is municipally owned creates a unique situation, the Feds regulalry contribute to provincial programs.
nfitz
Superstar
Yup exactly. If the Feds insist that their portion be used on Sheppard, then use it to improve bus service (queue jump lanes, dedicated bus lanes in some areas, etc) as in "interim measure", with the full measure being TBD. The WWLRT is really just a streetscape exercise west of Humber Loop, and the ROW along Bremner is already there (space-wise anyway).
rbt
Senior Member
The deal was to toll it to pay for repairs (via Saint Lawrence Seaway commission or whatever it's called). When those tolls were removed, and now the feds have stepped in to pay for repairs anyway.
No, it's not directly comparable because it is federally owned; but there is absolutely no reason for that piece of infrastructure to be federally owned and Gardiner not to be.
Anyway, doesn't matter. You don't think it's possible for a mayor to do it; therefore Sheppard LRT must be completed (giving away free money isn't politically feasible at the municipal/provincial level either).
shivyyz
New Member
Im really hoping that by some miracle we get a Sheppard subway instead of an LRT.
Getting from Downsview to anywhere East of Don Mills is a chore. You have to take a bus to Yonge/Sheppard then transfer to the Sheppard line where upon arrival at Don Mills you have to catch another bus.
We could manage with an LRT but the city will outgrow it in 50 years and it does not attract large developments.
Getting from Downsview to anywhere East of Don Mills is a chore. You have to take a bus to Yonge/Sheppard then transfer to the Sheppard line where upon arrival at Don Mills you have to catch another bus.
We could manage with an LRT but the city will outgrow it in 50 years and it does not attract large developments.
44 North
Senior Member
LRT will bring more development. Both track-for-track, and overall (because the line is longer). Think about it. Any railed transit allows for upzoning to higher density, whether it's a heavy rail underground subway, or a trolley. An LRT would have more stops, meaning more linear development along the line. A subway has fewer stops, and therefore more nodal development along the line.
The current Sheppard line runs near a highway and what was once swaths of warehouses and greyfield/brownfield. In other words, prime for mammoth development. But don't let the recent high density development along the line fool you into believing the same thing will happen east of Don Mills, because it wouldn't. Current residents wouldn't allow for that level of rezoning, and other than a section between Vic Park and the 404, the neighbourhoods of stable residential/commercial have a street and lot layout that is incongruous to that type of development.
I'm not a big fan of the SELRT, but realistically it would be adequate for well over 50 years. Although Toronto's population is roughly where it was expected 40 years ago, NIMBYism and lack of private interest in Scarborough and North York have pushed that population growth elsewhere across the city (downtown, predominantly). It's a bit flawed to project high growth/employment around North York City Centre and Scarb Town Centre when the last thirty years have shown that not to be the case. There'd be development, but not anything that couldn't arise anywhere else across TO that's rezoned as such.