Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[MrsNesbitt]

Hi, Mrs Nesbitt, how are you? I tend to agree with, I think the problem was not the lack of subway since Etobicoke and North York had subways. It was the corporate tax rates. They were too. High. Now when the city revived, people skipped them for downtown. Notice these days the heat is all about Downtown followed buy Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham and even Milton. Oakville when people want to talk about the Bay Street Wealthy (like my parents). For the subway: the problem is the push is coming out of parts of Queens Park. The Liberals said they were subway champions.


http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/14/can-yonge-and-sheppard-ever-be-like-yonge-and-eglinton/

I don't think Y+S is a commercial strip so much anymore.

I'm well thanks! Taxes may have been a factor in the past, but at this point the undeniable reality is that the bulk of the growth in this city will happen downtown, whether or not we want to accept that. STC and ECC are nodes, yes, but they'll never be the sort of urban centres that the Metro planners of 30 years ago would have wanted them to be. At least within our lifetimes.

Something similar can be said about the efforts of local government further out in my neck of the woods to turn Pickering into a thriving centre of commerce...

Nobody has yet successfully explained how the DRL will relieve the Yonge Line. It will relieve Yonge-Bloor by reducing the transfers. But how will it relieve the whole Yonge Line?

Smart Track or GO RER can provide the same amount of relief as the DRL as far as Yonge-Bloor is concerned. The real question is how to relieve the whole Yonge Line by diverting a good proportion of the demand from the north. I suspect that can't be done without involving some kind of Richmond Hill RER.

You're quite right. When about 25% of the ridership (ballpark empirical figures - don't quote me on them ) on a typical Yonge southbound rush-hour train boards at Finch arriving on buses from further north, there's a huge problem. Those trips would be far, far better-served with RER, which will be faster for those riders anyways. If we ever want to extend Yonge further north, it'll have to be done in conjunction with the Richmond Hill RER too, or else nothing will be accomplished except pushing more riders onto a line that's already overloaded. Cut out that huge number of Markham and Richmond Hill residents bound for downtown by providing them with more than a pittance of slow diesel trains per day, and Yonge will see a huge relief immediately. RER on the Stouffville line would reduce the huge numbers heading west on Bloor to transfer southbound at Bloor-Yonge each day too. Neither is a replacement for the DRL, which is needed for different reasons entirely additionally, but both are a start.

 

[kEiThZ]

Simple. Bring the DRL to Sheppard. Everyone from Scarborough gets off at the Fairview Mall stop. Attracts people from Richmond Hill, Markham, Aurora as well.

You consider that simple?

Most people want relief in their lifetimes, not just for their grandkids.

Metrolinx only recently agreed to moving the DRL (Union-Pape) up from the 25 year plan. And even that's in jeopardy because of the province's finances. Yet, people are fantasizing about taking the DRL to Sheppard.

Queen's Park can't afford a DRL from downtown to Sheppard in our lifetimes. It's why, it's slowly dawning on them that regional transit will have to be rebuilt around suburban rail. The DRL will end up being a downtown focused subway. Mark my words, it won't go past Eglinton in our lifetimes.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm well thanks! Taxes may have been a factor in the past, but at this point the undeniable reality is that the bulk of the growth in this city will happen downtown, whether or not we want to accept that. STC and ECC are nodes, yes, but they'll never be the sort of urban centres that the Metro planners of 30 years ago would have wanted them to be. At least within our lifetimes.

Something similar can be said about the efforts of local government further out in my neck of the woods to turn Pickering into a thriving centre of commerce...

I don't disagree at all. I think Islington and STC can become Urban Villages like Y+E and Y+S. Those areas can create
sustainable communities for the better. I think Pickering made too many mistakes and should focus on the condos at the harbor. Durham didn't capitalize when Toronto was in decline.

You're quite right. When about 25% of the ridership (ballpark empirical figures - don't quote me on them ) on a typical Yonge southbound rush-hour train boards at Finch arriving on buses from further north, there's a huge problem. Those trips would be far, far better-served with RER, which will be faster for those riders anyways. If we ever want to extend Yonge further north, it'll have to be done in conjunction with the Richmond Hill RER too, or else nothing will be accomplished except pushing more riders onto a line that's already overloaded. Cut out that huge number of Markham and Richmond Hill residents bound for downtown by providing them with more than a pittance of slow diesel trains per day, and Yonge will see a huge relief immediately. RER on the Stouffville line would reduce the huge numbers heading west on Bloor to transfer southbound at Bloor-Yonge each day too. Neither is a replacement for the DRL, which is needed for different reasons entirely additionally, but both are a start.

If Richmond Hill had all day service years ago, would we even talking about this? Even in Paris the subway is not everything to everyone.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

You consider that simple?

Most people want relief in their lifetimes, not just for their grandkids.

Metrolinx only recently agreed to moving the DRL (Union-Pape) up from the 25 year plan. And even that's in jeopardy because of the province's finances. Yet, people are fantasizing about taking the DRL to Sheppard.

Queen's Park can't afford a DRL from downtown to Sheppard in our lifetimes. It's why, it's slowly dawning on them that regional transit will have to be rebuilt around suburban rail. The DRL will end up being a downtown focused subway. Mark my words, it won't go past Eglinton in our lifetimes.

No I just described the Doug Ford plan . But in theory I think that's what people were think would happen with the DRL eventually.

 

[ehlow]

You consider that simple?

Most people want relief in their lifetimes, not just for their grandkids.

Metrolinx only recently agreed to moving the DRL (Union-Pape) up from the 25 year plan. And even that's in jeopardy because of the province's finances. Yet, people are fantasizing about taking the DRL to Sheppard.

Queen's Park can't afford a DRL from downtown to Sheppard in our lifetimes. It's why, it's slowly dawning on them that regional transit will have to be rebuilt around suburban rail. The DRL will end up being a downtown focused subway. Mark my words, it won't go past Eglinton in our lifetimes.

I doubt we'll ever see Sheppard East subway in our lifetimes either.

One thing is I'm glad the general public is now paying attention to how many years it takes to build these things. That's why rapid transit along GO corridors is so enticing, because it doesn't take as long as tunnelling a new subway.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm really hoping at some point conversion of Sheppard to LRT comes up.

To be quite frank, this is the only politically palatable solution in my eyes. Basically, the sales pitch would be "no transfers" and "one seat ride from Scarborough to Downsview" as the "northern crosstown".

For that we could convert the 4 Sheppard Line from HRT to light rail operations for a cost of about $600 Million (as of ~5 years ago; not inflation adjusted). This would be our best option.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You consider that simple?

Most people want relief in their lifetimes, not just for their grandkids.

Metrolinx only recently agreed to moving the DRL (Union-Pape) up from the 25 year plan. And even that's in jeopardy because of the province's finances. Yet, people are fantasizing about taking the DRL to Sheppard.

Queen's Park can't afford a DRL from downtown to Sheppard in our lifetimes. It's why, it's slowly dawning on them that regional transit will have to be rebuilt around suburban rail. The DRL will end up being a downtown focused subway. Mark my words, it won't go past Eglinton in our lifetimes.

If I die and the Relief Line doesn't go north of Eglinton then either: 1) Toronto seriously fu*ked up or 2) I somehow managed to terminate my life far ahead of my planned expiration date

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Nobody has yet successfully explained how the DRL will relieve the Yonge Line. It will relieve Yonge-Bloor by reducing the transfers. But how will it relieve the whole Yonge Line?

I don't think any of the options on the table can relieve the whole Yonge Line. But the Relief Line (University to Eglinton via Pape), which will cost $5.5 Billion, will provide great relief to Yonge Line at Eglinton and south of there. I don't think it's too hard to see how it will do this, but the details are in the TTC study. This is the Relief Line that is most likely to be built.

Richmond Hill RER may be able to relieve the Yonge Line, but I have a feeling that it's capacity may be to little to make a significant difference. Hopefully someone can confirm.

Smart Track or GO RER can provide the same amount of relief as the DRL as far as Yonge-Bloor is concerned.

It depends on which Relief Line you're talking about. All of the RER and Relief Line options will relieve Y-B Station. But some of the options on the table are vastly superior to the others. Right now, our options could be categorized as:

Worst: GO RER ($???)/SmartTrack($8 Billion) or Relief Line (Pape Station to University Station; $3.2 Billion). These will relieve B-Y, but not by a huge amount.
Better: Relief Line (Dundas West to Pape via Downtown; $6.2 Billion) OR Relief Line/Don Mills Subway (University to Eglintom via Pape; $5.5 Billion).
Best: Relief Line/Don Mills Subway (Dundas West to Eglinton via Downtown and Pape; $8.3 Billion).

Ultimately if we want significant and lasting relief for B-Y we'll need to build the Relief Line.

The real question is how to relieve the whole Yonge Line by diverting a good proportion of the demand from the north. I suspect that can't be done without involving some kind of Richmond Hill RER.

Richmond Hill RER or a Don Mills Subway. I recall that both options are being studied by ML. Richmond Hill RER will certainly be built.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

I don't disagree at all. I think Islington and STC can become Urban Villages like Y+E and Y+S. Those areas can create
sustainable communities for the better. I think Pickering made too many mistakes and should focus on the condos at the harbor. Durham didn't capitalize when Toronto was in decline.

If Richmond Hill had all day service years ago, would we even talking about this? Even in Paris the subway is not everything to everyone.

Haha Pickering is another issue entirely...visions of grandeur. Look up something called "Durham Live". You'll lol.

And no, if Richmond Hill had all-day service, the Yonge subway wouldn't be nearly so bursting at the seams. The Paris model is something to be seriously emulated here, and I hope that Queen's Park stays true to the RER plan for that reason.

For that we could convert the 4 Sheppard Line from HRT to light rail operations for a cost of about $600 Million (as of ~5 years ago; not inflation adjusted). This would be our best option.

100% our best option. Compared to the amount of money spent eliminating a transfer at Kennedy by building the second-most ridiculous subway extension in the GTA (and it pains me to say second-most), $600 million for a continuous Sheppard LRT from Yonge to Meadowvale at least - with the potential to extend westward not entirely off the books - is a pretty reasonable sum.

I don't think any of the options on the table can relieve the whole Yonge Line. But the Relief Line (University to Eglinton via Pape), which will cost $5.5 Billion, will provide great relief to Yonge Line at Eglinton and south of there. I don't think it's too hard to see how it will do this, but the details are in the TTC study. This is the Relief Line that is most likely to be built.

Richmond Hill RER may be able to relieve the Yonge Line, but I have a feeling that it's capacity may be to little to make a significant difference. Hopefully someone can confirm.



It depends on which Relief Line you're talking about. All of the RER and Relief Line options will relieve Y-B Station. But some of the options on the table are vastly superior to the others. Right now, our options could be categorized as:

Worst: GO RER ($???)/SmartTrack($8 Billion) or Relief Line (Pape Station to University Station; $3.2 Billion). These will relieve B-Y, but not by a huge amount.
Better: Relief Line (Dundas West to Pape via Downtown; $6.2 Billion) OR Relief Line/Don Mills Subway (University to Eglintom via Pape; $5.5 Billion).
Best: Relief Line/Don Mills Subway (Dundas West to Eglinton via Downtown and Pape; $8.3 Billion).

Ultimately if we want significant and lasting relief for B-Y we'll need to build the Relief Line.



Richmond Hill RER or a Don Mills Subway. I recall that both options are being studied by ML. Richmond Hill RER will certainly be built.

I don't disagree that DRL will need to be built eventually personally, but don't write off the utility of RER on the Richmond Hill Line entirely. Even looking at their benefits on their own entirely, without considering the potential to relieve the TTC network, RER on all of our existing GO lines will be a massive improvement. If in addition to that, we can cut a substantial number of York Region riders off of the Yonge line, it'll be an important measure to keep the region moving until a DRL is built.

A Don Mills-Pape-downtown subway eventually will be needed, but the Richmond Hill RER can at least relieve the pressure until someone produces the cash for that vast undertaking.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I don't disagree that DRL will need to be built eventually personally, but don't write off the utility of RER on the Richmond Hill Line entirely. Even looking at their benefits on their own entirely, without considering the potential to relieve the TTC network, RER on all of our existing GO lines will be a massive improvement. If in addition to that, we can cut a substantial number of York Region riders off of the Yonge line, it'll be an important measure to keep the region moving until a DRL is built.

A Don Mills-Pape-downtown subway eventually will be needed, but the Richmond Hill RER can at least relieve the pressure until someone produces the cash for that vast undertaking.

Oh don't get me wrong, I absolutely support all of our six new RER lines, whether or not the DRL is built. I'm just pointing out that no matter what RER you build, the DRL still need to be built now. There isn't a cheap magic bullet that will solve our Yonge and B-Y capacity problems.

 

[GenerationW]

For that we could convert the 4 Sheppard Line from HRT to light rail operations for a cost of about $600 Million (as of ~5 years ago; not inflation adjusted). This would be our best option.

Good luck getting Council to ever support that.

 

[44 North]

Here's my proposal for a Phase II of my previously-posted version of a 'light' DRL. I believe it's realistic, and that both branches can be completed for less than the price of a Sheppard Subway. Funding can be allocated from the SELRT, in-median portion of Eglinton East, and the shortening of the Scarborough Subway to only STC. Its impact on Scarborough, North York, and the commuting pattern of >100,000 would be significant.

From Don Mills/Eglinton the Scarborough branch would emerge from a tunnel alongside the CPR main freight corridor. This would continue to Warden, where the line would run elevated along Ellesmere to east of Kennedy. The elevated guideway of the SRT would be kept, rebuilt, and extended to Markham Rd/Sheppard as previously proposed.

A route along Don Mills from Eglinton to Sheppard is more of a fantasy addition, but entirely realistic. Preferably it would be elevated - but in-median or tunneled is possible as long as it remains grade-separated. The use of the CPR corridor is a tricky proposition, but the corridor is wide enough to accommodate more tracks through this area and it seems in realm of feasibility.

Others have mentioned Richmond Hill RER... I don't believe RER is very realistic south of Sheppard for the Richmond Hill corridor. The route through the valley is too circuitous, flood prone, and unreachable for a significant area of Toronto to be of much use.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

A route along Don Mills from Eglinton to Sheppard is more of a fantasy addition, but entirely realistic. Preferably it would be elevated - but in-median or tunneled is possible as long as it remains grade-separated. The use of the CPR corridor is a tricky proposition, but the corridor is wide enough to accommodate more tracks through this area and it seems in realm of feasibility.

Honestly this has to be one of the best, if not the best, fantasy map proposals I've seen in a long time. It's simply brilliant. This may be even better than GO RER at and SmartTrack at improving transit in Scarborough, since your proposal goes further east and won't cause additional crowding on Yonge Line. Depending on the projected usage, capital costs and operational costs I'd even support replacing the SELRT with this option if the debate is reopened. I hope this option gets looked at when it's time to extend the DRL north of Eglinton.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Here's my proposal for a Phase II of my previously-posted version of a 'light' DRL. I believe it's realistic, and that both branches can be completed for less than the price of a Sheppard Subway. Funding can be allocated from the SELRT, in-median portion of Eglinton East, and the shortening of the Scarborough Subway to only STC. Its impact on Scarborough, North York, and the commuting pattern of >100,000 would be significant.

View attachment 36017

From Don Mills/Eglinton the Scarborough branch would emerge from a tunnel alongside the CPR main freight corridor. This would continue to Warden, where the line would run elevated along Ellesmere to east of Kennedy. The elevated guideway of the SRT would be kept, rebuilt, and extended to Markham Rd/Sheppard as previously proposed.

A route along Don Mills from Eglinton to Sheppard is more of a fantasy addition, but entirely realistic. Preferably it would be elevated - but in-median or tunneled is possible as long as it remains grade-separated. The use of the CPR corridor is a tricky proposition, but the corridor is wide enough to accommodate more tracks through this area and it seems in realm of feasibility.

Others have mentioned Richmond Hill RER... I don't believe RER is very realistic south of Sheppard for the Richmond Hill corridor. The route through the valley is too circuitous, flood prone, and unreachable for a significant area of Toronto to be of much use.

The only modification I'd make to this would be to interline the Line 2 and Relief Line to a shared terminus at Sheppard-Markham Station. There may need to be more than two platforms at that station to handle demand from both lines.

 

[BurlOak]

For that we could convert the 4 Sheppard Line from HRT to light rail operations for a cost of about $600 Million (as of ~5 years ago; not inflation adjusted). This would be our best option.

I believe that the Schabas report had the cost to convert the Sheppard subway to SkyTrain was $100M. (but I think he had a math error and maybe meant +/- $160M).

http://www.neptis.org/sites/default...eptis_schabas_report_dec_2013_finaljuly23.pdf