Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[ehlow]

A Don Mills line from Sheppard & Don Mills to downtown would certainly get way more ridership than Sheppard East!

 

[Solid Snake]

A Don Mills line from Sheppard & Don Mills to downtown would certainly get way more ridership than Sheppard East!

I agree but I doubt I'll see that before I die. So again, what to do in the meantime?

 

[ehlow]

I agree but I doubt I'll see that before I die. So again, what to do in the meantime?

What to do on Sheppard East is the question?

Well depending on the plan it could either be done soon or we could be much older when something happens:

1. Increase bus service, maybe improve it using POP or other improvements like bus lanes, this could happen very soon. I like this option. This option could happen while we're waiting for 2 or 3.
2. Sheppard East LRT built in 4 years, but not scheduled to start until 2017.
3. Subway or elevated line, I think this will probably take 10 years if we start now, with several years of study. However we may not start now since the ridership could be considered too low so the priority of it will be lower than DRL and other lines.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I agree but I doubt I'll see that before I die. So again, what to do in the meantime?

1. Build the Sheppard East LRT
2. Extend the Relief Line to Don Mills and Sheppard

This is the best option out of all the proposals I've seen. And it can likely be built before any extensions of the Sheppard Subway get off the ground. Unlike Sheppard, the Don Mills corridor is "subway ready" (pending further study) and it would be a regional priority (relieving Yonge and bringing more subways to Richmond Hill).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Subway or elevated line, I think this will probably take 10 years if we start now, with several years of study. However we may not start now since the ridership could be considered too low so the priority of it will be lower than DRL and other lines.

Won't Sheppard East move something in the ballpark of 4,000 pphpd? We'll all likely be dead by time Sheppard needs a subway.

 

[ehlow]

Won't Sheppard East move something in the ballpark of 4,000 pphpd? We'll all likely be dead by time Sheppard needs a subway.

That's why I feel like switching to the subway is essentially a "do nothing" plan.

If the plan is to build a subway from 2035-2042 or something like that, it's essentially a do nothing plan because it's so far in the future that anything we decide now is irrelevant anyways.

 

[ehlow]

1. Build the Sheppard East LRT
2. Extend the Relief Line to Don Mills and Sheppard

This is the best option out of all the proposals I've seen. And it can likely be built before any extensions of the Sheppard Subway get off the ground. Unlike Sheppard, the Don Mills corridor is "subway ready" (pending further study) and it would be a regional priority (relieving Yonge and bringing more subways to Richmond Hill).

I wish there was more serious consideration of a Don Mills subway from Sheppard down to downtown. This would be an extremely useful line. Hopefully the DRL goes up to Eglinton and going up to Sheppard can be phase 2. We have to start somewhere I guess.

 

[Solid Snake]

1. Build the Sheppard East LRT

Useless due to the Scarborough Subway going to Sheppard. If you think Sheppard subway was a white elephant, wait for that one once people realize that even less people will use it than anticipated. Build Finch West instead

2. Extend the Relief Line to Don Mills and Sheppard

They can't even guarantee that it will go to Eglinton, let alone to Sheppard.

 

[gweed123]

I was not paying attention to transit in 2007 when Transit City happened, but I don't really see what's wrong with serving low-income neighbourhoods with transit?

Low-income areas in the suburbs tend to be high density since they are in clusters of 10-20 story apartment buildings, and they tend not to own cars, so they are transit users.

Is serving those people not fulfilling the goal of moving people? I fail to see what's so horrible about building transit to low income high-ridership areas in the suburbs.

I also hear people criticize Transit City for being ideological, wanting to "europeanize" streets. What I see in the EA's is that it was determined that full grade separation was not required due to projected ridership, PPPHD estimates. I don't see what's idealogical about that. If you need full grade separation, we build a subway or elevated, if not and there's room, at-grade. Is that ideological?

There's nothing wrong with serving low income neighbourhoods, but the way Transit City went about it, in my opinion, was incorrect because:

1) There were more urgent network demands elsewhere (ie DRL).

2) Many of the lines that were proposed as LRTs were well within the range of what could be accommodated by BRT, which would have been significantly less expensive and faster to build.

3) Many of the lines as designed forced undesirable transfers that could have been avoided if a different design was chosen.

 

[ehlow]

Useless due to the Scarborough Subway going to Sheppard. If you think Sheppard subway was a white elephant, wait for that one once people realize that even less people will use it than anticipated. Build Finch West instead

Why is the Sheppard LRT useless due to the McCowan subway? It would feed into it, as would the Sheppard bus if the LRT is cancelled.

I disagree I think the McCowan/Scarborough subway will get much higher ridership than Sheppard. McCowan has many busy bus lines feeding into it and will be a trunk route to downtown. Many transit riders heading downtown from Scarborough would take the McCowan subway, transferring from a bus. Also the SRT already has a pretty good ridership, McCowan will provide a higher capacity service and go further north.

They can't even guarantee that it will go to Eglinton, let alone to Sheppard.

Well a Don Mills subway is just as far away from happening as Sheppard East, except you can make a much better case on why the Don Mills subway should be funded & built first.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I wish there was more serious consideration of a Don Mills subway from Sheppard down to downtown. This would be an extremely useful line. Hopefully the DRL goes up to Eglinton and going up to Sheppard can be phase 2. We have to start somewhere I guess.

It's not being considered because there's no existing line and no money to build the Relief Line from Sheppard to Don Mills. Once construction starts on our Relief Line RT I expect that they'll be talk about extending it west to Bloor Street West and north to Sheppard-Don Mills.

 

[ehlow]

There's nothing wrong with serving low income neighbourhoods, but the way Transit City went about it, in my opinion, was incorrect because:

1) There were more urgent network demands elsewhere (ie DRL).

2) Many of the lines that were proposed as LRTs were well within the range of what could be accommodated by BRT, which would have been significantly less expensive and faster to build.

3) Many of the lines as designed forced undesirable transfers that could have been avoided if a different design was chosen.

Fair enough. I don't disagree with any of those points, although with point 2 I always feel unsure of what the user of the term means by BRT (dedicated lanes or not). Anyways better bus service improved with RT-like features would be work well I agree, and could be implemented faster.

 

[gweed123]

Why is the Sheppard LRT useless due to the McCowan subway? It would feed into it, as would the Sheppard bus if the LRT is cancelled.

I disagree I think the McCowan/Scarborough subway will get much higher ridership than Sheppard. McCowan has many busy bus lines feeding into it and will be a trunk route to downtown. Many transit riders heading downtown from Scarborough would take the McCowan subway, transferring from a bus. Also the SRT already has a pretty good ridership, McCowan will provide a higher capacity service and go further north.

The McCowan Subway will actually increase the ridership on the SELRT I think, but it will lower the peak point ridership. Instead of being a uni-directional flow to Don Mills station, it will be a bi-directional flow, particularly between Don Mills and McCowan. Many of the riders from east of McCowan will get off at McCowan instead, opening up space for riders further down the line. Some of the riders west of McCowan, who without the Scarborough Subway would have rode west to Don Mills, would instead ride east to the Scarborough Subway. This increases counter-peak flow, and decreases peak point ridership.

Ironically though, even when the total ridership on the line goes up, the pphpd will go down, making the line even more suitable to BRT operations instead of LRT.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

2) Many of the lines that were proposed as LRTs were well within the range of what could be accommodated by BRT, which would have been significantly less expensive and faster to build.

At least in the case of Finch West, the LRT was chosen over BRT because the operational costs of LRT were significantly lower.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Sheppard West is a matter of time I think. The Eastern part is the big question. Due to the Bloor-Danforth Line going to Sheppard Avenue East, an LRT really doesn't make any sense on that corridor anymore. Those ridership numbers linked to that projects are now obsolete and does not reflect the new reality. The ridership on a future LRT would drastically drop past McCowan Road going west. Most people east of McCowan wouldn't bother to go to Don Mills and just take the subway at McCowan and Sheppard.

An extension to Victoria Park is a good idea. An extension to Agincourt in a regional transit context (merge Leslie/Oriole with Agincourt GO offering frequent service on all their lines) where GO, TTC and the City of Toronto would wish to make a transit hub with more density would make sense. No wonder our transit lines are saturated, everybody's going in the same area for work and entertainment. There needs to be more options for employers to set up shop besides Bay street and along Yonge street. If the Danforth line went to Finch, diverting the Sheppard line past Agincourt to go along Finch East would make sense.

I know it does sound very contradictory to dismiss LRT than be pro subway, that's why again, building a line just to build one, would not make sense (Even I admit it). If GO, TTC and City of Toronto would do something like I point out above, then that makes more sense. I personally don't believe that the Sheppard East LRT as envisioned by Transit City won't draw anybody like the Neptis report pointed out. An LRT built right like Neptis suggested which would be 100% grade separated (elevated, barriers at intersections) or like the London DLR, then it could work.

A TRUE LRT built right would work. Not this Transit City streetcar model.
That's just my opinion...

That's another issue. The west part of the Sheppard LRT would be DOA with the McCowan Alignment Subway. Now the subway in the SRT corridor? Then the Bloor Danforth line would stop at Sheppard/Markham, which won't completely cannibalize the ridership of the SRT.

That's what I'm thinking with regards to low ridership, if we do switch to a subway plan, won't the priority drop so far that it won't happen until decades later?

Therefore we'll essentially be stuck with a permanent bus to subway "forced transfer" at Don Mills as it has been for >10 years, or Vic Park if it's extended a bit in the meantime.

Me too. Sometimes I think Weston to STC is the best solution and the one that would make everyone quiet. I just feel that way, I can't explain it, like BMO.

This is an incredibly short sighted idea. The DRL will eventually reach Don Mills and Sheppard. When that does happen, someone from east of VicPark would need to transfer twice to get to the DRL. Just make Don Mills Station the transfer point for the eventual Relief Line, Sheppard Subway and LRT.

That's just wishful thinking. So we do nothing until the subway gets to Sheppard? I did say a true LRT built like the Neptis Report suggested *could* work.

The DRL need to go to Don Mills and Finch *coughBigBusRoutecough* yesterday Tiger. Dundas West to Pape is not good enough and I hope the Liberal can see that before we end up with over crowding there too.