Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[OneCity]

Furthermore I agree with this subway and hope it gets built soon. In full @OneCity

Wont be all that "soon".

But finally has a very serious heart beat with the commitment to start preliminary design studies which is all that can be hoped for at this stage. If it gets through to detailed design during SSE construction in the next term it will be a pretty safe bet unlike the transfer LRT line. The local support is very strong from all parties so there would be no chance for another Rob Ford moment here.

 

[Rainforest]

Populism isn't the right in any sense.

Good point. There are some indications that a sizeable portion of Trump's voters are not right, and aren't fooled with his extravagant promises either. Rather, they purposefully voted for Trump because he positioned himself as an enemy of the established political class. Some of Trump's voter would be equally happy to support a decidedly left candidate such as AOC, if that candidate is seen as hostile enough to the established political class and the established rules.

It remains to be seen if a similar voting pattern can emerge in Canada or in Europe, or will remain a US-only phenomenon.

 

[Neutrino]

It already did emerge in Britain with Brexit, no?

 

[OneCity]

Good point. There are some indications that a sizeable portion of Trump's voters are not right, and aren't fooled with his extravagant promises either. Rather, they purposefully voted for Trump because he positioned himself as an enemy of the established political class. Some of Trump's voter would be equally happy to support a decidedly left candidate such as AOC, if that candidate is seen as hostile enough to the established political class and the established rules.

It remains to be seen if a similar voting pattern can emerge in Canada or in Europe, or will remain a US-only phenomenon.

It's been in the City for sometime.

Rob Ford was a clear mini anti-establishment politician before Trump. Many apathetic Left leaning voters rallied into his camp basically to send the message to City Hall. This Sheppard line was a prime example of the collective City working against its own to force an ideological agenda for a specific technology over details. I wouldn't agree for many practical and short sighted financial reasons, but If we wanted to cheap out transit in Scarborough before a subway was built LRT was not the answer, it was not really much of an improvement, questionably "rapid" and added a new hindrance with a new transfer.

Ford came in to power with a loud message from voters pointing to the a number of activist councilors where he took direct aim at the transit plan many of them from outside areas strongly supported. Sadly to this day some of these councilors still choose to triple down against these voters in other areas on trasnit. That's still very extreme and concerning for our politics moving forward even without such a big ticket issue as subways at the Municipal level being removed. Doug continues to benefit from this from a new level as its still so bad in the collective City we really ended up with a subway line without stops. I feel if Tory was Mayor three terms ago things may not have escalated to where they are today with neither the long garbage strike or push for the questionable LRT plan therefore not major support for a Fordnation movement which followed.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Good point. There are some indications that a sizeable portion of Trump's voters are not right, and aren't fooled with his extravagant promises either. Rather, they purposefully voted for Trump because he positioned himself as an enemy of the established political class. Some of Trump's voter would be equally happy to support a decidedly left candidate such as AOC, if that candidate is seen as hostile enough to the established political class and the established rules.

It remains to be seen if a similar voting pattern can emerge in Canada or in Europe, or will remain a US-only phenomenon.

Hate to break it to you, but the populist mindset problems you just mentioned are happening all over the world (not just the United States), including but not limited to pretty much all of south & Central America, Canada (Think Rob/Doug Ford and idiotface from Alberta), pretty much all of Europe (with people going as far as electing near Neo nazis to send a message to the 'political elite' of Europe), East Asia (but that's more engrained cultured nationalism), etc. Point is, this sort of desire to give the government the finger has been stewing up all around the world ever since the war in Iraq, and has only been made worse by the Great Recession.

Think about it, Kenny campaigned on people's fears of job loss in Alberta and pretty much blamed it on the status-quo politics of both Alberta, BC, and the Federal Government of Canada, and used pro-energy rhetoric similar to Trump's to basically send a big middle finger to those who were not in support of pipeline policies. The same can pretty much be said in Ontario, instead of ousting Wynne by electing someone sane, the PCs and the NDP (but the PCs moreso) decided it would be a wonderful idea to point the finger at everything the previous government has done and convinced the public that ford was electable despite his own, and his family's past history.

This is not a US problem, it's a flaw with democracy — The fact that political polarization has concluded that compromise, centrism and realism as a whole are unacceptable in a party's vision of a country, and that the only way to combat these things is to retaliate in an angry, politically incorrect manner that appeals to populist manners. People don't care about policy, they care about the perception of being genuine, regardless of said genuine actions are what's best for a country (and a person's core beliefs) or not.

And the scariest part is that no one seems to care. I'll take most corrupt politicians any day over ones that threaten the core values of democracy — corruption can be tried, a broken political system cannot.

Sorry for rambling.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It's been in the City for sometime.

Rob Ford was a clear mini anti-establishment politician before Trump. Many apathetic Left leaning voters rallied into his camp basically to send the message to City Hall. This Sheppard line was a prime example of the collective City working against its own to force an ideological agenda for a specific technology over details. I wouldn't agree for many practical and short sighted financial reasons, but If we wanted to cheap out transit in Scarborough before a subway was built LRT was not the answer, it was not really much of an improvement, questionably "rapid" and added a new hindrance with a new transfer.

Ford came in to power with a loud message from voters pointing to the a number of activist councilors where he took direct aim at the transit plan many of them from outside areas strongly supported. Sadly to this day some of these councilors still choose to triple down against these voters in other areas on trasnit. That's still very extreme and concerning for our politics moving forward even without such a big ticket issue as subways at the Municipal level being removed. Doug continues to benefit from this from a new level as its still so bad in the collective City we really ended up with a subway line without stops. I feel if Tory was Mayor three terms ago things may not have escalated to where they are today with neither the long garbage strike or push for the questionable LRT plan therefore not major support for a Fordnation movement which followed.

Not all the story. The LRT had supporters in Scarborough. The reality is there is a subway already there, not about any type of public support. With the SRT, moving to LRT was just to eliminate all the unnecessary different technologies. The LRT would not have had a Kennedy transfer. There is a transfer at Don Mills, subway to bus. There are multiple reasons beyond transit people don't like Doug or Rob. And it's not the media's fault.

Good point. There are some indications that a sizeable portion of Trump's voters are not right, and aren't fooled with his extravagant promises either. Rather, they purposefully voted for Trump because he positioned himself as an enemy of the established political class. Some of Trump's voter would be equally happy to support a decidedly left candidate such as AOC, if that candidate is seen as hostile enough to the established political class and the established rules.

It remains to be seen if a similar voting pattern can emerge in Canada or in Europe, or will remain a US-only phenomenon.

It already did emerge in Britain with Brexit, no?

Brexit was first, and the vote was legit. I think the political class needs to pay attention. But the voters need to learn to adjust to the times.

 

[OneCity]

Not all the story. The LRT had supporters in Scarborough. The reality is there is a subway already there, not about any type of public support. With the SRT, moving to LRT was just to eliminate all the unnecessary different technologies. The LRT would not have had a Kennedy transfer. There is a transfer at Don Mills, subway to bus. There are multiple reasons beyond transit people don't like Doug or Rob. And it's not the media's fault.



Brexit was first, and the vote was legit. I think the political class needs to pay attention. But the voters need to learn to adjust to the times.

The LRT certainly did have a transfer at Kennedy in Transit City. It was an "improved' transfer. Only the Fords attempt to agree on the LRT with the Province did the transfer get removed. Which was based on a Metrolinx report they've keep relatively quiet since and council rejected this plan against Ford.

Of course there are supporters for everything everywhere, but make no mistake the support for the Sheppard subway is very strong and always has been. We saw strong suburban apathy take over in Millers years with more less Scarborough Councillors agreement just to do something after the subways they requested first term were rejected. A plan like Transit City would never have happened if not for amalgamation. Thats were Ford tapped into the large quantity of voter apathy and here we are.

The new transfer on Sheppard was truly absurd. Most are taking a bus already and would have to dismount to board LRT then board the subway stub for a short distance. Certainly not the dumbest thing the City has built like streetcars that dump residents into a lane of traffic stopping both lanes or recent unprotected bike lanes taunting people to risk their lives and certainly not as bad as building a subway without stops. But it was pretty sad to say the least. The City was an absolute joke for everything transit infrastructure related. and I have more confidence in any Party in charge at the Provincial level going forward to do better

 

[Streety McCarface]

The new transfer on Sheppard was truly absurd. Most are taking a bus already and would have to dismount to board LRT then board the subway stub for a short distance. Certainly not the dumbest thing the City has built like streetcars that dump residents into a lane of traffic stopping both lanes or recent unprotected bike lanes taunting people to risk their lives and certainly not as bad as building a subway without stops. But it was pretty sad to say the least. The City was an absolute joke for everything transit infrastructure related. and I have more confidence in any Party in charge at the Provincial level going forward to do better

While I agree their plan for Sheppard East was awful, the fact remains that the streetcars have existed long before roads were built for cars. Wait, they were built long before cars existed. The streetcars were there first, and you can't really change past infrastructure easily.

 

[Hopkins123]

While I agree their plan for Sheppard East was awful, the fact remains that the streetcars have existed long before roads were built for cars. Wait, they were built long before cars existed. The streetcars were there first, and you can't really change past infrastructure easily.

Yeah, kind of like how the Sheppard Subway existed long before David Miller's "solution" came along and poisoned the well for commuters along this corridor for generations to come. The subways were there first, and you can't really change past infrastructure easily!

 

[Neutrino]

Let's just mandate a 1km annual extension of this line until it gets to where it needs lol

 

[OneCity]

While I agree their plan for Sheppard East was awful, the fact remains that the streetcars have existed long before roads were built for cars. Wait, they were built long before cars existed. The streetcars were there first, and you can't really change past infrastructure easily.

Its a bigger discussion likely for another thread but the lack of change has more to do with heritage saving politics rather then helpful transportation planning in certain parts of the streetcar network. We have had multiple opportunities to fix this nonsense but no political will within the City to insult the strong streetcar lobbyists.

You just can't sell me on a mode that stops all lanes of traffic and forces people to board and dismount into a lane of traffic is worth not changing for areas feeding into the City. We set the bar so low previously that the shortcoming in Transit City looked OK

 

[Tuck]

Its a bigger discussion likely for another thread but the lack of change has more to do with heritage saving politics rather then helpful transportation planning in certain parts of the streetcar network. We have had multiple opportunities to fix this nonsense but no political will within the City to insult the strong streetcar lobbyists.

You just can't sell me on a mode that stops all lanes of traffic and forces people to board and dismount into a lane of traffic is worth not changing for areas feeding into the City. We set the bar so low previously that the shortcoming in Transit City looked OK

A bit off topic, but what exactly do you propose? Many streets in toronto arent wide enough to accomodate streetcar platforms without taking away lanes, and no one wants to do that.

The streetcars are necessary for capacity.

 

[Allandale25]

From today's City staff report:

Sheppard East

The Province's proposed "Transportation Vision" for Toronto also referenced future work to define an extension of Line 4 Sheppard east from Don Mills Station to McCowan Road but did not commit any funding. The City and TTC are seeking further clarity on the Province's position on the Sheppard East LRT project.

 

[Allandale25]

Sheppard gets a mention on PDF page 37 of the Metrolinx Business Plan posted here.

5.2 Subways

Metrolinx, in partnership with the Province and Infrastructure Ontario, and in collaboration with the City of Toronto and other municipalities, will advance the delivery of new subway projects. The projects identified in the Province’s New Subway Transit Plan for the GTHA, for which Metrolinx will play a key role are:

• Ontario Line – Business case work, environmental assessment and preparation for delivery for a new 15km subway from Ontario Science Centre to Ontario Place/ Exhibition;
• Yonge Subway Extension - Preliminary Design Business Case for a 7.4km extension from Finch Station to Richmond Hill/Langstaff Gateway Urban Growth Centre;
• Eglinton West LRT
- Advancing business case and preliminary design work for a 14km extension of the Eglinton Crosstown LRT from the future Mount Dennis Station to Pearson International Airport;
• Line 2 three-stop east extension to Scarborough; and
• Exploratory work on the Sheppard subway to McCowan.

 

[Allandale25]

A planned wave of new condos in Scarborough Agincourt is driving subway dreams

Agincourt, especially around Agincourt Mall at Sheppard Ave. and Kennedy Rd., will get many more homes over the next decade — at least 15,000 condominiums are being proposed.

www.thestar.com