Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[TransitBart]

I though the point was to create transit that made us leave the car. So to heck with transit. They have the 401.

 

[amnesiajune]

On the flip side it's easy to look backwards and say a line like Shepard didn't even meet it's targeted growth projections when the line did little but provide a shuttle service to Yonge with very few trip generators connected or attempts at intermodal connections (ahem Oriole GO).

None of the city's subway stations outside of the big office hubs generate much walk-up traffic. Unless a station has bus services to feed passengers into it, its ridership can't get past 12,000-15,000, no matter what the density is around it. That's why Sheppard ridership is low.

A connection to Oriole wouldn't do anything for the subway. The Go Train service itself doesn't have many passengers (around 10,000 trips/day) and anyone who was going to take the subway would just take Viva down to Finch.

I though the point was to create transit that made us leave the car. So to heck with transit. They have the 401.

By that logic, we don't need the DRL because we already have the DVP.

 

[Leo_Chan]

None of the city's subway stations outside of the big office hubs generate much walk-up traffic. Unless a station has bus services to feed passengers into it, its ridership can't get past 12,000-15,000, no matter what the density is around it. That's why Sheppard ridership is low.

A connection to Oriole wouldn't do anything for the subway. The Go Train service itself doesn't have many passengers (around 10,000 trips/day) and anyone who was going to take the subway would just take Viva down to Finch.



By that logic, we don't need the DRL because we already have the DVP.

But the DVP is not 12+ lanes now is it?

 

[amnesiajune]

But the DVP is not 12+ lanes now is it?

The DVP isn't a main artery connecting 25 million people either. And it moves faster than a lot of the 401 during rush hour.

 

[OneCity]

At the highest time of usage, the subway would only be 17% full. If you are going to fully support the subway just because "subway" then don't feel bad when others call your position out for blatant disregard of available facts in favour of selfish neighbourhood tribalism.

Yes, you can very much run a subway with 5,000 peak-hour ridership - the point is we do not want to. Given that the ridership is clearly within range of LRT and BRT, the discussion then develops to "what is the biggest bang for the buck?" to which, subway clearly is not the answer. As a Torontonian and a taxpayer to the whole city of Toronto, it makes zero sense to support subway option here if not for the existence of the stubway. Doing nothing would actually preferable to subway, not because we hate Scarborough, but because the cost of the subway is egregious and the benefits negligible. Now, I actually do not want to do nothing, because there are some things we can do to improve the corridor such as building a BRT, which might actually be preferrable to a subway in many ways if we gave it some thought in design.

"Neighbourhood tribalism"? That's a rich slap as it goes both ways in this debate

The City and Province have and are building different a technology to similar areas than what was proposed in Transit City and like it or not this is the repercussion. Your argument might hold more weight if there was intention to do something with the existing Sheppard stubway. But yet the heart of Scarborough is expected to a blind eye and accept new transfers which don't exists? And as far as the SSE was concerned keep one which has hindered the connection to the City for years. Your ongoing assessment of Scarborough poor growth is heavily flawed given the crap transit that existed and uncertainty of this political "tribal" debate.

I do agree that express bus is perfectly fine until the time comes up again to upgrade. But if the subway stub stays in its current form, we will be back to square one and likely pay much more at that stage anyway. If Sheppard stub was a mistake, fix it. Fact is you cant t expect other "tribes" to be negatively impacted by previous mistakes and just accept it when its called out. After what we just went thru in the last decade it should be clear It wont happen.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

"Neighbourhood tribalism"? That's a rich slap as it goes both ways in this debate

Not really. If I was a Scarborough resident, my position would be the same as a Midtowner. The DRL-Long would be the greatest panacea to Scarborough's transit woes.

It even eliminates the transfer issue with the Sheppard stubway. Anyone who rides the Sheppard bus gets a forced transfer at Don Mills, where they can choose to take the Sheppard subway to NYCC, or they can board the DRL to downtown, bypassing Bloor-Yonge choke-point.

If I was a Scarborough resident and saw that the Sheppard Subway and the Scarborough Subway were both on the table, I would tell my politicians to abandon both and use the funds to building the DRL to Sheppard and upgrading the bus system so that I can get to the DRL easier.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Especially given the speeds discussed with the DRL. 25 minutes from Queen and Yonge to Don Mills and Sheppard is damn quick. That is more like 45 minutes today.

 

[OneCity]

Not really. If I was a Scarborough resident, my position would be the same as a Midtowner. The DRL-Long would be the greatest panacea to Scarborough's transit woes. .

The DRL serves a small portion of current Scarborough transit commuters and only a small percentage of overall Scarborough residents actually use the TTC given the poor investments of the past, lack of fare integration with GO and number commute times compared to car. People here are not very keen to support building infrastructure only to areas outside as a sole "priority" when this infrastructure will spur high quality investment without being properly connected here and receiving similar opportunity to grow here. There is an economic side as well and if we are not willing to build equitably as we have seen with the Sheppard stub, and almost witnessed with SCC compared to Vaughan MC, or NYCC, then we must expect political backlash will likely ensue. The DRL is great, lets build it, but most of Scarborough reaps little benefit given our current inferior transit network and zero economic impact which matters to residents

It even eliminates the transfer issue with the Sheppard stubway. Anyone who rides the Sheppard bus gets a forced transfer at Don Mills, where they can choose to take the Sheppard subway to NYCC, or they can board the DRL to downtown, bypassing Bloor-Yonge choke-point..

Why would the Sheppard subway not go straight thru to NYCC with just a stop at Don Mills if they choose to go transfer to the DRL? Odd

If I was a Scarborough resident and saw that the Sheppard Subway and the Scarborough Subway were both on the table, I would tell my politicians to abandon both and use the funds to building the DRL to Sheppard and upgrading the bus system so that I can get to the DRL easier.

Scarborough is a big place with various needs, unfortunately there are too many that do not to live here, who live close to subways stops and higher order transit have Scarborough needs figured out. Don't get me wrong it goes both ways, and well see it go the other way in the future should residents here not get its central areas connected into the City's main infrastructure. If we weren't amalgamated the subways would have been the directions within Scarborough and residents could have avoided paying for the DRL's and all the other transit capital elsewhere. In the end its basically a wash if we can stop debating and wasting money from these delays. If there is no interested to fix previous mistakes than people here wont support the inconveniences created by connecting another technology. Weve already seen a major failure with the RT and that doesn't sit well either

 

[jaybe]

QUOTE="OneCity, post: 1257885, member: 69891"]
Scarborough is a big place with various needs, unfortunately there are too many that do not to live here, who live close to subways stops and higher order transit have Scarborough needs figured out. Don't get me wrong it goes both ways, and well see it go the other way in the future should residents here not get its central areas connected into the City's main infrastructure. If we weren't amalgamated the subways would have been the directions within Scarborough and residents could have avoided paying for the DRL's and all the other transit capital elsewhere. In the end its basically a wash if we can stop debating and wasting money from these delays. If there is no interested to fix previous mistakes than people here wont support the inconveniences created by connecting another technology. Weve already seen a major failure with the RT and that doesn't sit well either[/QUOTE]

Holy smokes OneCity. Are you suggesting that transit planning can only be effective if a planner lives directly in the community where the transit will be built? With that logic, how can you speak on behalf of all of Scarborough? I mean, it is quite a large place with diverse needs. If you live south of the 401 then you most certainly are not qualified to speak on behalf of residents living north of the 401. They will have their own transit planner who is intimately familiar with their needs. Of course, if that planner lives in Malvern then she most certainly cannot speak on behalf of transit riders in Agincourt. Agincourt residents must have a planner who will speak to their unique needs. Then again, that Agincourt planner may live on Birchmount rather than McKowan.....

I hope you get my point.

Regarding the tax burden placed on Scarborough residents and the idea that subways would have been built in Scarborough already, are you familiar with this chart:

Or this chart:

For the life of me, I cannot fathom how the SSE or an extension of the Sheppard subway will deliver the density needed to justify the investment. If Scarborough were an independent city and the lines had been built the result would be a tremendous tax burden on Scarborough residents.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The DRL serves a small portion of current Scarborough transit commuters

If you look at travel time estimates for various transit proposals, you'll see that the Relief Line (Long) is the fastest route downtown (Financial District) for huge parts of Scarborough (even if the SSE were built):

On the entire Eglinton East corridor, the Eglinton LRT > Relief Line Long route is the fastest route Downtown .

On the entire Sheppard East corridor, the Sheppard LRT/bus > Relief Line Long is the fastest route downtown (Yes, faster than the SSE)

A trip from Kennedy @ Finch is also fastest on the Relief Line

If you live along the Lawrence East corridor, guess what, Relief Line Long is also your fastest route downtown.

And to bring Sheppard Subway into the discussion, for downtown-bound trips, the Sheppard Line + Yonge Line trip isn't remotely time competitive with the DRL.
​

I hope you can begin to paint yourself a mental picture of the huge area of Scarborough where the DRL would be the fastest route to Downtown Toronto. It's ridiculous to claim that the DRL would not serve a significant portion of Scarborough commuters, when for a lot of them (maybe even most of them) it would facilitate the fastest Downtown-bound trips.

There are two reasons for the DRL's time competitiveness. One, the Danforth portion of Line 2 has relatively tight stop spacing, and is thus quite slow. Any route using the Danforth Line is going to have a huge travel time penalty. Two, the Relief Line travels diagonally to the downtown core, and its geography allows it to have relatively few stations, decreasing travel times, and essentially making the DRL an east end-downtown express line for most of the eastern half of the City of Toronto (this also diverts huge amounts of riders away from Yonge, providing crowding relief there).

This is why, in my opinion, the DRL Long and Eglinton East LRT are the two highest priority proposals that would serve Scarborough. The Sheppard Line extension needs to fall off the map - it's not necessary with DRL Long.

 

[sixrings]

But the downtown relief line goes through north York and not scarborough making it an attack on suburbia and the poor

 

[whatever]

And that's why it needs to stop being called the "downtown relief line". It's going to make more of a difference for people living outside the core than it will for people inside the core. I live downtown, and I doubt I'd ever have reason to use the downtown relief line. Call it the East End Express or something, and hopefully people will start to realize who it's actually being built for

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I propose renaming it the Scarborough Relief Line.

 

[Rainforest]

And that's why it needs to stop being called the "downtown relief line". It's going to make more of a difference for people living outside the core than it will for people inside the core. I live downtown, and I doubt I'd ever have reason to use the downtown relief line. Call it the East End Express or something, and hopefully people will start to realize who it's actually being built for

Very true. I think that in the official docs it is called "Relief Line", without downtown in the name. But a more catchy name would help.

 

[BurlOak]

If you look at travel time estimates for various transit proposals, you'll see that the Relief Line (Long) is the fastest route downtown (Financial District) for huge parts of Scarborough (even if the SSE were built):

On the entire Eglinton East corridor, the Eglinton LRT > Relief Line Long route is the fastest route Downtown .

On the entire Sheppard East corridor, the Sheppard LRT/bus > Relief Line Long is the fastest route downtown (Yes, faster than the SSE)

A trip from Kennedy @ Finch is also fastest on the Relief Line

If you live along the Lawrence East corridor, guess what, Relief Line Long is also your fastest route downtown.

And to bring Sheppard Subway into the discussion, for downtown-bound trips, the Sheppard Line + Yonge Line trip isn't remotely time competitive with the DRL.
​

I hope you can begin to paint yourself a mental picture of the huge area of Scarborough where the DRL would be the fastest route to Downtown Toronto. It's ridiculous to claim that the DRL would not serve a significant portion of Scarborough commuters, when for a lot of them (maybe even most of them) it would facilitate the fastest Downtown-bound trips.

There are two reasons for the DRL's time competitiveness. One, the Danforth portion of Line 2 has relatively tight stop spacing, and is thus quite slow. Any route using the Danforth Line is going to have a huge travel time penalty. Two, the Relief Line travels diagonally to the downtown core, and its geography allows it to have relatively few stations, decreasing travel times, and essentially making the DRL an east end-downtown express line for most of the eastern half of the City of Toronto (this also diverts huge amounts of riders away from Yonge, providing crowding relief there).

This is why, in my opinion, the DRL Long and Eglinton East LRT are the two highest priority proposals that would serve Scarborough. The Sheppard Line extension needs to fall off the map - it's not necessary with DRL Long.

What Scarborough really wanted was a continuous grade-separated reliable rapid transit line connecting to downtown. (see map).

Fastest way to downtown from many areas of Scarborough would have been this line cutting diagonally through Scarborough. (would have helped East York and Liberty Village too).

Sheppard line would be extended to Downsview (and interlined). That way, an LRT trip could be made on Sheppard to:

1. The new Scarborough line
2. The DRL Long
3. The Sheppard line to York U.