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Shabby Public Realm

Or the millions of Torontonians who walk by that pole every year for that matter?

That includes me. I walk by that pole every day and have not noticed it being rusty and tilting until you pointed it out now. Are we Torontonians just apathetic?
 
Or the millions of Torontonians who walk by that pole every year for that matter?

That includes me. I walk by that pole every day and have not noticed it being rusty and tilting until you pointed it out now. Are we Torontonians just apathetic?

There is a bit of nuance we need to clarify first in terms of how the public may percieve this. Is it apathy - knowing the problem and not caring; or is it lack of awareness - not even recognizing there is anything amiss, perhaps due to conditioning (i.e. it's no different from countless other poles out there in the city).

Beyond this differentiation - certainly it's one thing for the public not to notice, but I expect the guardians of the public realm to do far, far better.

AoD
 
I have noticed the many rusting poles around Yonge and Dundas Square and also around City Hall and countless others in the city. I find it astonishing that in such prominent parts of the city there would be rusting poles in plain view. Imagine going to Times Square in New York or Picadilly Circus and finding rusting poles all over the place. It shows a city which doesnt care about how it looks and is neglected. It I don't think it's apathy on the people here. It's just that what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to use our money to go buy and new poles to put there? What's the use in complaining to our councilors? Most don't care and even the ones who complain about it like KWT are quickly shot down. It's the job of the city, the politicians, and the bureaucrats to recognize such things and fix them. If they don't seem to care, why should the ordinary person do? Why isn't there someone at the city who looks at things like this and looks for ways to fix it. With how disjointed things are at city hall, no wonder this isn't being recognized. Even if someone was overseeing this, there would probably some politician complaining that its a waste of taxpayer dollars. Look how much flack Waterfront Toronto got for trying to improve our public spaces.
 
It's just that what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to use our money to go buy and new poles to put there? What's the use in complaining to our councilors? Most don't care and even the ones who complain about it like KWT are quickly shot down. It's the job of the city, the politicians, and the bureaucrats to recognize such things and fix them. If they don't seem to care, why should the ordinary person do? Why isn't there someone at the city who looks at things like this and looks for ways to fix it. With how disjointed things are at city hall, no wonder this isn't being recognized. Even if someone was overseeing this, there would probably some politician complaining that its a waste of taxpayer dollars. Look how much flack Waterfront Toronto got for trying to improve our public spaces.

See in this case I don't buy the money argument - a large amount (not enough, but let's not go there) was spent on YDS as well as the various feature lighting/poles along that stretch of Yonge over the years. Resources are clearly available - but this issue was bypassed.

AoD
 
Who oversees issues re our public realm? Is there a department at city hall that does this? I don't think the public is apathetic. Most people don't even give any consideration to these matters; not because they find them trivial, but because the notion of how imperative Toronto's public realm is has nver been placed in their minds. It is an esoteric topic that is never discussed in the media or by our politicians. Some sort of public awareness campaign could change that, perhaps. If the public were inundated with discussion around this issue, on the same obsessive, relentless level as talk about climate change/sustainability/bullying, etc, then there would be a cultural shift in how we perceive our public spaces. Constant talk about anything forces people to consider and confront issues. Since there has been virtually zero emphasis placed on our public realm by our leaders and media, the majority of people have no opinion on the subject, as it doesn't even register. If we could somehow show the public images of beautiful public spaces around the world, held up against photos/footage of our shabby ones, people would be able to decipher how poor our standards are and would probably demand betterf for our city. The only way to get our politicians to observe this problem and improve it is for the majority of voters to make this an issue of importance. Right now politicians don't have to be bothered with said issue because it's something that never comes up in debates, elections, interaction with constituents. Throw in the fact that our City Council is largely steered by suburban councillors that drive from one crumblung parking lot to another, with basically no walking and observation of their surroundings taking place. The suburbs are mostly made up of roads, parking lots and strip plazas (not exactly pedestrian friendly or stimulating things). Another problem is that most people don't care about anything beyond their driveways/homes. This impersonal attitude is reflected in the absence of benches in our parks. Somehow people need to be united and taught to view the city as an entity that we are all connected to, instead of being segregated and worrying only about what benefits us individually. We need to be shown that all of our lives can be improved if we work together towards a common goal. Isn't the new Toronto sign at NPS proof that anyone enjoys things that offer the city more verve? I guarantee that if we start making improvements across the city, in greater frequency (more murals on underpasses, utility boxes, etc), people will take notice and have a replenished pride and outlook on their communites.
 
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Or the millions of Torontonians who walk by that pole every year for that matter?

That includes me. I walk by that pole every day and have not noticed it being rusty and tilting until you pointed it out now. Are we Torontonians just apathetic?

It's a TTC traction pole, and is probably not yet due for replacement. Soon they'll put in a new one and then we'll have two poles side by side for a couple of years at least until the streetlight and associated stuff gets moved to the new pole and a contractor is hired to remove it. Get to know this pole and befriend it, it's likely going to be around for a while yet.

They used to paint these old poles, but I would guess with not many of them left, they're not bothering any more.
 
Has anyone here actually contacted their local councillor or BIA etc.? I mean contacted them without ranting, just regarding a specific targeted subject? You can't build Rome in a day but if you picked a targeted, manageable issue that is bothering you they actually acknowledge your concern. An example could be a missing aspect to the public realm on a street, the state of repair of something in the public realm on a street etc.

Ranting that the city is ugly and that the system and government are clueless and impotent is not complaining, it's moaning. In a way moaning is a kind of apathy. An apathy that validates the absence of investment in the public realm and worse, minimizes and criticizes the work of those few people in the public and private realms who actually do push forward this issue. Sure, people need a forum to vent but let's not forget that more change will happen if you validate, give credit and praise to those projects and those individuals who do make a difference. That is a better focus of our attention than a dialogue focusing on how far we have fallen from some fictional example of aesthetic nirvana.

It's been established that this thread is entirely about moaning and being as unconstructive as possible. My entirely reasonable suggestion of contacting politicians and holding protests and rallies was met with a wall of silence.

Case in point, look what came in the mail after your crazed suggestion:

I have noticed the many rusting poles around Yonge and Dundas Square and also around City Hall and countless others in the city. I find it astonishing that in such prominent parts of the city there would be rusting poles in plain view. Imagine going to Times Square in New York or Picadilly Circus and finding rusting poles all over the place. It shows a city which doesnt care about how it looks and is neglected. It I don't think it's apathy on the people here. It's just that what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to use our money to go buy and new poles to put there? What's the use in complaining to our councilors? Most don't care and even the ones who complain about it like KWT are quickly shot down. It's the job of the city, the politicians, and the bureaucrats to recognize such things and fix them. If they don't seem to care, why should the ordinary person do? Why isn't there someone at the city who looks at things like this and looks for ways to fix it. With how disjointed things are at city hall, no wonder this isn't being recognized. Even if someone was overseeing this, there would probably some politician complaining that its a waste of taxpayer dollars. Look how much flack Waterfront Toronto got for trying to improve our public spaces.

Yes we get it. Local democracy ended in 2010 and has sucked ever since so there's no use trying. "Raising awareness" (as Tewder put it) is really just a euphemism for moaning and crying about how democracy sucks/Whinging about everybody elses bad taste. Is this UT or Reddit?

Whether Toronto's public realm is all that functional is debatable. Narrow sidewalks, by and large, and broken streets cluttered with hydro poles etc. are not that functional for the pedestrian, especially in winter. The city certainly isn't that functional where it comes to cyclists and transit users...

The idea behind this thread is to advocate for improvements. Looking to other cities like Chicago as a way to point out what we do better is for a different thread, surely. Rather, look there and see what we could do better. It's far more constructive in this context.

... and if anyone wants to create a 'Why Toronto is the best city in the world thread' well be my guest. We can all contribute to that!

I think the amount of kudos WT has received over their work is pretty clear there is an appetite for change (and I expect the same if the city revitalization projects such as Berczy are executed to a high quality). The issue isn't that - but how seriously public realm is taken by our myriad of decisionmakers. I take this again as an example:

View attachment 52450

Corner of Yonge and Dundas - that tilting, rusted pole predates Yonge-Dundas Square (nevermind the issues around how that project was executed), which is arguably one of the most high profile public realm improvement of the early 2000s. Is there a lack of awareness regarding the importance of the area? As one of the more widely used intersections by residents and tourists and yet this? After all the money that was spent to improve the attractiveness of the district? Like no one from Tourism Toronto noticed it? The BIA? The 3 successive mayor's offices?

AoD

It was proven a while back Chicago has rusting poles along its waterfront and the city is still around. But it could also be why the city is $80 billion in debt... because if you don't care about a few rusting poles along your waterfront, imagine what they think of a budget!
 
I thought it might be fun to approach this positively, i.e. taking a moment now and then to look at the potential in this city with respect to the public realm. This pic was posted by Marcanadian in another thread. It's just a secondary street off of Queen West - Beverley Street I believe - but what a difference some streetscape improvements would make here:


 
The problem with duplicated/old/rusty poles is one that has been worked on by the St Lawrence Neighbourhood Association (with mixed success) for many years. We have certainly had the support of our Councillor (Pam McConnell) and work with our BIA but most of the poles are NOT City property. The streetlight poles belong to Toronto Hydro Street Lighting (since these were, foolishly, sold off by David Miller's administration.) The streetcar overhead poles belong to the TTC and they often rent/allow Toronto Hydro/Bell/Rogers etc to attach wires to them. The TTC are in the process of totally redoing all their overhead and this normally means they erect new poles. They then move over their own wires (quite fast) and tell Hydro etc that they need to move theirs over to the adjacent new pole. For obvious reasons, this is not top priority for Hydro etc so it can take years. ("It's not in our budget' being a common response!) When the pole is 'clear' the TTC is normally quite quick to remove it. In 2014 we managed to get the TTC to pressure Hydro etc and virtually all the duplicate poles on King Street East were cleared and have now been removed. Our current concern is Adelaide Street which has a forest of duplicate poles awaiting action by Hydro.

Yes, pole replacement and removal is far too slow but it's not as simple as one might think and is generally not a City project.
 
The problem then is with city council for not enforcing guidelines or requirements. It would seem to be an easy fix though, they just have to standardize the pole design, specs and policies surrounding wiring and maintenance, and then mandate this to Toronto Hydro and the TTC etc. Why isn't this being done? Why would our city council allow any agency to have control over the public domain in this way?
 
I think we've established for awhile now that Toronto Hydro is one of the worst roadblocks when it comes to implementing public realm improvements. Totally agree that selling off the poles is a bad move by Miller (though it must also be said that not much was done when even they're owned by the City)

We really do need a public realm Czar with teeth in the city.

AoD
 
I think we've established for awhile now that Toronto Hydro is one of the worst roadblocks when it comes to implementing public realm improvements. Totally agree that selling off the poles is a bad move by Miller (though it must also be said that not much was done when even they're owned by the City)

We really do need a public realm Czar with teeth in the city.

AoD
I agree Toronto a Hydro is the problem, and that their management is completely unconcerned with our public realm. Or reliability for that matter, as the outages due to their precious overhead wires during the last ice storm shows. But doesn't the City own TH? If so, presumably they appoint the Board that ultimately gives direction to the TH executive, so Council could fix this problem if it cared.
 
I agree Toronto a Hydro is the problem, and that their management is completely unconcerned with our public realm. Or reliability for that matter, as the outages due to their precious overhead wires during the last ice storm shows. But doesn't the City own TH? If so, presumably they appoint the Board that ultimately gives direction to the TH executive, so Council could fix this problem if it cared.

It's an arms length organization, with 3 city nominee (councillors) on the board - so the city can influence, but can't rule it a fiat even though it is the owner of the utility. Besides it would be very difficult to fund any public realm project out of the Hydro budget partly because any increase in electricity rates will have to be approved by the province, who would loath bad press in that regard (plus, it isn't their "core mission"). The best way forward isn't expecting TH to do the work out of their own pocket - but to promptly sign off on projects funded by the city or other third parties.

AoD
 
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