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Seven ways to make Toronto a world-class city again

Don't notice the overhead hydro poles, wires and Streetcar lines?

Man, there's a whole lot of BS being spewed about. No wonder the city continues to spin its wheels. Apparently there's nothing wrong with it and there's nothing to learn from other cities!
 
Don't notice the overhead hydro poles, wires and Streetcar lines?

Man, there's a whole lot of BS being spewed about. No wonder the city continues to spin its wheels. Apparently there's nothing wrong with it and there's nothing to learn from other cities!

Would it be a good thing to bury the hydro wires? Yes.

Does hydro wires at street level determine whether a city has "world class" status or not? No.
 
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Nice reductio ad absurdum argument. I'm a huge fan of WT's work, and I had season's passes to the AGO and ROM when I lived in Toronto. I specifically was railing against UT posters who continually clutter decent threads with ineffectual and nonsensical complains about Toronto's overhead wires. I, for one, think a modest rise in property taxes to fund WT again and pay for more transit would be a great thing.
One could make the same argument about the ROM or the waterfront as you made about the hydro wires, that they're so far down the priority list as to be meaningless. I'd disagree with that argument of course, but it's the same logic.

While public realm is important, and that there is malaise in the current approach, let's not pretend it is the bread and butter of "alpha city" - it is ultimately it is the economic, social, knowledge and political prowess that determines whether a city is alpha, not how pretty it looks. In fact one can argue that these problems arose precisely because the city is increasingly large, dense and economically active. That's what's straining our infrastructure and make us reconsider how our public realm affects our standing in the world. Not the other way around.

As someone once said when I was in Rochester awhile ago - their rush hour only lasts 10 minutes. Enough said.

AoD
You make a good point about alpha cities, which tend to be though of in economic terms. But since this thread is talking about the fuzzy phrase "world class", that means different things to different people and doesn't necessarily mean alpha. Cities can be world class for different reasons. And when we're talking about a concept so subjective, the public realm does play a role. In any case, I disagree with your point about the public realm becoming an issue because the city is growing so quickly. Take your example of Rochester, a city in decline. Yet overhead wires are rare on their urban main streets. And that's just what people in Toronto don't seem to get - things like this are done in other cities without a second though. They don't become an issue because they bury wires just as readily as they pave the streets. Only here is it an issue.

The fact that Rochester does a better job of this than Toronto is kind of sad.

One way for Toronto to make Toronto a world class city again? Stop navelgazing at itself long enough to contemplate whether or not it is a world class city or not.

Bonus round: don't use the term world class city. Ever.
This happens everywhere. I've seen New Yorkers have the same conversations about their city.

Are Bloor (Annex) or the Danforth (Greektown) more "world class" than Queen West or Kensington because of wires / no wires?

Does it even make much of a difference at all?
I don't know, but I can say for sure that the public realm is a lot nicer and more inviting. And burying the power lines in those neighbourhoods hasn't made them less interesting as some on this thread seem to be suggesting, with ridiculous allusions to Disneyland.

I think you guys are missing the point.

London is by far an uglier city than Barcelona, yet it is also far more powerful, economically and politically. Toronto is uglier than Montreal, yet also far more powerful and influential.

Bucharest has no overhead wires in the historical core while Toronto does. So what? The correlation between public realm and what establishes a city as world-class is somewhere close to nil.
Nobody's saying that making the city look nicer will make us more economically powerful. But it will make the city, you know, look nicer. And function better too, as Tewder pointed out - seriously those wooden poles take up a lot of room on the sidewalks. By the way, London may be far uglier than Barcelona, but Toronto is far uglier than London despite a lot of the architecture being similar. That says a lot about Toronto.
 
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One could make the same argument about the ROM or the waterfront as you made about the hydro wires, that they're so far down the priority list as to be meaningless. I'd disagree with that argument of course, but it's the same logic.


You make a good point about alpha cities, which tend to be though of in economic terms. But since this thread is talking about the fuzzy phrase "world class", that means different things to different people and doesn't necessarily mean alpha. Cities can be world class for different reasons. And when we're talking about a concept so subjective, the public realm does play a role. In any case, I disagree with your point about the public realm becoming an issue because the city is growing so quickly. Take your example of Rochester, a city in decline. Yet overhead wires are rare on their urban main streets. And that's just what people in Toronto don't seem to get - things like this are done in other cities without a second though. They don't become an issue because they bury wires just as readily as they pave the streets. Only here is it an issue.

The fact that Rochester does a better job of this than Toronto is kind of sad.
.

Look at what they did with the VIVA rapidways in York Region where they completely ripped up the street and made it look much better but instead of burying the wires they let them in place on wooden poles.
 
I think you guys are missing the point.

London is by far an uglier city than Barcelona, yet it is also far more powerful, economically and politically. Toronto is uglier than Montreal, yet also far more powerful and influential.

That's a dangerous path. It will make cities like Houston and Dallas way more world class than Toronto. Will you admit that and will you now say "well, it is not ALL about the economy"?
 
While public realm is important, and that there is malaise in the current approach, let's not pretend it is the bread and butter of "alpha city" -

Yes, absolutely right. I was focusing on the realm to point out that 'whinging about poles' isn't just gratuitous. Looking a little deeper it's about critiquing a broken and dysfunctional public realm, which ultimately is driven by public apathy and politics. The poles symbolize this beautifully.

Also, there are many other parameters that go into making an alpha city but i can't help but feel that public realm, beauty and urbanism are essential ingredients in the recipe. Without these things we can be a strong beta but not an alpha. Up for the debate though I agree.
 
That's a dangerous path. It will make cities like Houston and Dallas way more world class than Toronto. Will you admit that and will you now say "well, it is not ALL about the economy"?

Actually the various rankings usually look at a range of indicators - and both Houston and Dallas is consistently behind Toronto.

Yes, absolutely right. I was focusing on the realm to point out that 'whinging about poles' isn't just gratuitous. Looking a little deeper it's about critiquing a broken and dysfunctional public realm, which ultimately is driven by public apathy and politics. The poles symbolize this beautifully.

Also, there are many other parameters that go into making an alpha city but i can't help but feel that public realm, beauty and urbanism are essential ingredients in the recipe. Without these things we can be a strong beta but not an alpha. Up for the debate though I agree.

There is more to life than symbols - like hard data. Feelings have nothing to do with it, and I can easily draw symbols from various world cities that would somehow illustrate my point in public apathy and politics (segregation and no go zones in Paris? Race and class conflicts in London? Urban poor and caged homes in Hong Kong? Pollution in Shanghai? Graffiti in Rome?) In terms of urbanism - I'd say we are doing quite fine in that regard (not necessarily in terms of beauty, but in terms of increasing vitality of the urban fabric)

AoD
 
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I'm trying to figure out what you're arguing here. Are you saying that if Toronto spent some money to bury its power lines it would have more homeless people and the Gardiner would be in even worse shape? Or that our lack of attention to aesthetics has given us a less severe homeless problem than other cities? Do other cities have more problems with infrastructure crumbling because they bury their power lines?

Given that we clearly need to strictly prioritise public spending due to a lack of appetite for increases to public income through taxes, tolls, etc, I'd say that burying hydro lines is rather low on the priority list....or at least it should be.

Housing people, blowing up (I would literally blow it up if it were possible) the Gardiner (or fixing it, I guess *eye roll*) or perhaps building better transit infrastructure would all go a lot further in making Toronto world-class (or keeping it world-class, depending on your level of pessimism/optimism).
 
.....never mind me in any case. I actually love Toronto for its grimy big frontier town feel....but like really big frontier town. One might even say world-class frontier town.


PS: I'm not at all against burying hydro lines, I just think that we should have a more expansive electrified rail service in the region (among other things) before then. We can't have it all, and the number of things lacking in Toronto are many so what's it going to be?


PPS: Seriously though....what defines a place as being world-class?

PPPS: Wait, maybe if the federal government ended all subsidies to oil companies and transferred that money to municipalities instead then maybe we could have it all. We're not talking amounts totaling my meager annual salary here.
 
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I can think of two main things:

1) pay for it.
Toronto's municipal taxes are lower than all sorts of cities all around Ontario, and that makes no sense. living here comes with lots of extra opportunities, and those should come with a cost. but we've had a succession of politicians who have convinced us that taxes are punishment, not investment, that we already pay ludicrously high taxes, and that any increase would be intolerable. and it shows - the city's shabby and can't invest in itself. time for road tolls. time for expensive parking. time for some serious transfer money from other levels of government.

2) run it.
this city suffers from spectacularly myopic leadership. we do everything by half-measures and compromise and our preferred method of confronting problems is to kick them down the road. I have lived and worked in many places, and traveled to many more, and I really can't think of a single "wow, that's a good idea" initiative that started here in Toronto. we're not bold enough by half. we're not willing to try things out. despite our size, we have no pull with the province or feds. we're impressed by how clean cities like zurich and Singapore are, but they're not cleaned by magic - we could do it too. we could let people drink in city parks, or tear down the gardiner, or remove street parking downtown, or any number of other things - hell, we could even just try them temporarily.

at the core of all this, I think, is that Toronto doesn't really believe it's a big city. it believes it's a nice medium-sized town like Dartmouth or Windsor or something, and it runs accordingly.
 
I can think of two main things:

1) pay for it.
Toronto's municipal taxes are lower than all sorts of cities all around Ontario, and that makes no sense.
I think Toronto property owners pay more municipal taxes than most property owners elsewhere in Ontario. Certainly the percentage of tax against perceived property value may be lower, but the dollars paid out are higher in Toronto.

I look at my own house downtown. In 1998 I was paying under $400 six times a year. Now I'm paying almost $800 six times a year, and looking at significant staged increases over the next tax cycles. At the rate of inflation my tax bill should about $550. http://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/related/inflation-calculator/
 
Maybe we could worry less about being 'world class' in the worlds eyes and start doing what is best for those who live here...get some extensive, efficient, public transportation that will remove not add to the gridlock. This city is traffic strangled, everywhere, all times of the day (and night). The people who live here, those are the ones whose opinion of the city really matters! We need a 50 yr plan for moving people around this city.
 
Given that we clearly need to strictly prioritise public spending due to a lack of appetite for increases to public income through taxes, tolls, etc, I'd say that burying hydro lines is rather low on the priority list....or at least it should be.

Housing people, blowing up (I would literally blow it up if it were possible) the Gardiner (or fixing it, I guess *eye roll*) or perhaps building better transit infrastructure would all go a lot further in making Toronto world-class (or keeping it world-class, depending on your level of pessimism/optimism).
So you're arguing that we shouldn't prioritize public money to design or beautification? No offence but I think that's kind of sad. The money is there, it's not a zero sum game. To imply that we can have either a good public realm or house the poor but not both is a false dilemma that's just perpetuating the problem. This city spends money on everything from fountains to arts grants to museums, and that spending doesn't mean that fewer people have homes. Burying hydro wires is no different. Cities that bury their hydro wires (ie. basically all of them) don't have more trouble housing the poor than we do as a result.

Maybe we could worry less about being 'world class' in the worlds eyes and start doing what is best for those who live here...get some extensive, efficient, public transportation that will remove not add to the gridlock. This city is traffic strangled, everywhere, all times of the day (and night). The people who live here, those are the ones whose opinion of the city really matters! We need a 50 yr plan for moving people around this city.
There's more to running a city than filling potholes and moving people around. Making streets look good and sidewalks that aren't blocked by wooden poles should be a high priority too. We don't have to choose between transportation and streetscaping - we're a wealthy, booming city. We have no excuse.
 
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Maybe we could worry less about being 'world class' in the worlds eyes and start doing what is best for those who live here...get some extensive, efficient, public transportation that will remove not add to the gridlock. This city is traffic strangled, everywhere, all times of the day (and night). The people who live here, those are the ones whose opinion of the city really matters! We need a 50 yr plan for moving people around this city.

We have one, but car drivers and property tax payers don't like it and keep delaying it.
 

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