saveoursubways (SOS)

[kEiThZ]

We've been over these facts time, and time again ... I just don't see the point - it's like trying to argue about religion with a believer.

Right. So why should we listen to you? Obviously, you aren't going to be convinced by anything we say. Likewise, why are you wasting your time here? Obviously, we aren't going to be convinced by anything you say either.

Feel free to contribute to our discussions (in this thread). But don't expect us to suddenly make a U-turn based on the gospel according to Nick Fitzgerald. We feel strongly about our views and are working to convince our communities and our fellow citizens (beyond UT) about their merits. It's as simple as that.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

We feel strongly about our views and are working to convince our communities and our fellow citizens (beyond UT) about their merits. It's as simple as that.

Good luck...by the time you convince people about your plan, it will be Y3K. Most people are busy watching American Idol, shows on TLC, and The Real World: DC right now!

 

[Rainforest]

By pushing forward with a plan that involves cancelling this project at this stage, simply devalues your entire plan, and means that anyone with any power in the city will be forced to ignore you. You have thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

Really, this is not such a big issue. Everybody understands that a mid-ground solution exists: extend the subway to Kennedy, and build LRT east of Kennedy; and that it will require 0.7 - 0.8 B of extra funding which is not unreasonable in the whole network context.

Their plan shows just the subway on Sheppard to keep the message simple; but if that plan gets serious consideration, it will result in the above mentioned subway / LRT combo solution.

 

[Voltz]

You know full well that the TTC DID NOT study Don Mills to STC...
RTES fully demonstrated that Don Mills to STC would be a success, profitable and the projected ridership justified its construction.

Where on earth did you gather that?

The RTES ranks sheppard to STC as a "Maybe" under potential for success

Note in this RTES follow up report, BRT is recommended
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/reports/rtes_follow-up_report_presentation.pdf

And the TTC did not say building a subway out to Morningside is not worth the cost, they said that the peak point ridership that would be expected on such an extension does not meet minimum subway standards.

 

[kEiThZ]

Good luck...by the time you convince people about your plan, it will be Y3K. Most people are busy watching American Idol, shows on TLC, and The Real World: DC right now!

If that's true then why do you care so much? You obviously care enough to troll here with posts like this?

As for me, it's about standing up for something I believe in. Even if we fail miserably, I'll be glad I tried and I'll be glad I didn't take "good enough" sitting down. I want this city to be great. I'd rather not support mediocrity. We've had too much of "good enough" for far too long.

 

[SimonP]

1) Are you worried we'll have that big an impact? If so, then thanks for the compliment!

I hope that you have a large impact. I'm certainly in favour of the more subways and increased transit funding. I do think there are some problems with your approach.

The focus on the Sheppard LRT is counter productive. Who at city hall are you going to work with? Incumbent councillors have already committed their political capital to the Sheppard line. They could be persuaded on future projects, but they are on the public record for Sheppard. Or is the goal to oust all the incumbents, and replace them with ones that follow your vision? (the Toronto Party approach)

Look at how Mihevc/Sewell turned out last election. That has to be a test case of the best possible challenger against the worst possible transit scheme, and Mihevc was reelected by more than 30 points. If you want to get city council to back your plan, you will have to present something that appeals to the pro-transit incumbents.

The best case is that one of the credible mayoral contenders picks up elements of the plan, and then wins and pushes it through council. This would again mean selling it on political rather than purely transit efficiency terms. It's a bad sign when one of the authors of the report doesn't even know the correct name of the mayoral front-runner.

What candidate would be the most likely to back such a plan? Who do you want to be it's standard bearer? What neighbourhoods is that candidate going to need to win, and how well does your transit plan address them? How can you sell the plan as a winning strategy to them?

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

As for me, it's about standing up for something I believe in. Even if we fail miserably, I'll be glad I tried and I'll be glad I didn't take "good enough" sitting down.

That's a lie and you know it. IF SOS is unsuccessful, I can see you and SOS members getting very upset and still pushing TTC and Metrolinx for changes

 

[kEiThZ]

That's a lie and you know it. IF SOS is unsuccessful, I can see you and SOS members getting very upset and still pushing TTC and Metrolinx for changes

Umm. That's what standing up for what you believe in means. It means you fight for it now. We're already doing things like writing to Metrolinx and the TTC. Why would we stop?

This is not an effort just to influence candidates for the upcoming election. And our efforts won't stop after the election either. We aren't just pitching this at politicians. We will be doing our best to get our message out to the average Joe in the hopes that they will convince their politicians about the benefits of our plan.

But I am not going to be moping around if I see LRTs on Sheppard. I am realistic and I know that there's a very small likelihood that we'll have a huge impact. But that does not mean, to me, that I should not try. Where would we be if people gave up so easily on their principles?

By the way, have you answered the question posed to you in the PM?

 

[kEiThZ]

SimonP,

Like I've said, we'll talk to anybody and everybody who'll listen. We aren't out to pick sides in the election or target certain candidates. We're a bunch of guys at UT who thought we should stop grumbling about a problem and take action. That's it.

We'll put our thoughts out there. Hopefully somebody will listen. And if anybody steals even some of our ideas, I'll be thoroughly overjoyed. Heck, I'll be happy if we just make people more aware of about transit, what TC is and it's benefits and pitfalls. If an average resident on Sheppard can understand what that LRT line is bringing him and understand the trade-offs between the bus he is riding today, the subway he was promised and the LRT he might get, I'll be happy.

 

[Dan416]

I think this thread should be locked. It's going nowhere. SOS discussions can take place in the invite-only SOS group. There's zero point in debating people who've already made up their mind. You might as well make this a discussion between atheists and religious fundamentalists. It ain't going anywhere.

As much as SOS opponents might like to paint SOS as anti-LRT, that's simply not true and we've already had this discussion like 20 times in this very same thread. I think the LRTistas could hang out in a Transfer City thread, and the SOS supporters can stay in this thread. Then there'll be no debate, and no arguments. But I think the temptation to troll each other's threads would be too great.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't want to see the thread get locked. We need a way to share with other UT members (even those who disagree) our work. That said, I am tired of the constant rehashing of old arguments and repeated hijacking of this thread. Ditto for what's going on in the individual LRT project threads. I, for one, will do my best to resist getting into useless debates in those threads here on in. Hopefully, SOS opponents will follow suit here.

 

[Rainforest]

^ kEiThZ, I like your way of thinking and reasoning, even if I don't always agree with you.

If you ever run for a public office, you have my vote

 

[kEiThZ]

^ kEiThZ, I like your way of thinking and reasoning, even if I don't always agree with you.

If you ever run for a public office, you have my vote

And maybe you can extend that warmth to what SOS is trying to do. I have no issues with people picking and choosing from what SOS puts out.

 

[Fresh Start]

You guys are allowed to make fun of TC advocates, but get offended by Juan416.

Good luck...by the time you convince people about your plan, it will be Y3K. Most people are busy watching American Idol, shows on TLC, and The Real World: DC right now!

This is precisely why we are offended by Juan416.

Also was my post making fun of TC advocates or rather the TC consultants who first thought up creating an LRT subway under Jane St? Picking nonsense out of sensible, easy to comprehend statements once again, I see.

It's pretty clear that in the eyes of many here, rational healthy debate is limited to only to anti-LRT comments. If you eliminate those who oppose the save our subways plan, you don't have healthy debate. You just want a big group of yes men!

Sorry, you must be confusing us for David Miller. We're not politicians in search of sycophants to wipe our bottoms and without question always follow the planned upon directive because the leader is always right and can never make mistakes nor be held accountable for the negative impacts upon society as result of that one person's self-interests colluding their judgment. We just want to see a public good fulfilled. So tell me 'fitzy what just healthy debate was contained within Juan's "contribution" that I quoted above? Forgive me for saying this, but a lot of you just come across as bullies and hooligans who come in here for the sole purpose of taunting us because we different and such indifference is intolerable to you.

No 'fitz, it is not enough to throw our hands in the air and cry defeat simply because a fixed pork-barrel largesse that won't cover budget overruns will contribute all of one-third of the total cost of SELRT; and grade-separating Agincourt GO would have to had been done regardless; and a subway-grade tunnel to Consumers will need to be built regardless. So am I missing any remnant justifications for one mode over the other - one petering out into a provincial park wilderness, the other providing a one-seat direct ride between Places to Grow - that you have yet to point out to this forum and to the SOS group?

 

[GenerationW]

For reference here is how we ended up with the Shepperd line back in 1995:

In summary:
*Sheppard Line ran through the riding of powerful Tories, who had just narrowly been elected
*Eglinton Line ran through the riding of powerful rivals to the Tories
*North York developers were strongly in favour of the Sheppard line
*Said developers had bankrolled Lastman's campaigns for the last 23 years (and I'm sure were also generous to any councillor who backed the plan)

I agree there is a lot of political naivete on this thread. The goal of SOS is to essentially serve as lobbyists for more subway lines. How real lobbyists get results is not be presenting great, fact filled reports, it is by convincing elected officials that it is in their political interest to agree with them.

Why would McGuinty ever agree to a Sheppard subway line? The seats in that area are bedrock Liberal, he doesn't need to spend billions on votes he already has. It makes much much sense to send lines up into York region, as the 905 is the swing region that decides every election.

So Sheppard only got built because it ran through the ridings of "powerful" Tories under the Harris government, but it's impossible for Sheppard to get extended because it would run through the ridings of "bedrock" Liberals under McGuinty. Pardon my political naivete, but that doesn't add up.

The feds have not yet come through on funding for Eglinton.

They don't need to. On April 1, 2009, the Ontario government announced that it would provide full funding for construction of this line.