saveoursubways (SOS)

[GenerationW]

I think he's been part of the SOS elimination squad, moving around the city disappearing people who might have seen a draft of the report, so that they don't point out why it would never work.

Beats getting banned from here for a month.

 

[Justin10000]

Mammoliti is no more of a joke than the Transfer City crew. Remember, they were first to propose a "subway" under 8 kilometres of Jane.

You guys are allowed to make fun of TC advocates, but get offended by Juan416.

"The Jane LRT design is, putting it mildly, challenging because of the narrow right-of-way available for the south end of the route. Alternatives including underground construction or reduction in the number of road lanes are being considered. These will be a harder sell in the Jane corridor than on other Transit City routes because of the lower projected demand relative to the community impact and the cost of an underground option. This wouldplace the line underground south of Wilson Avenue, but would result in much wider average station spacing (1km if underground, 500m if on the surface)."

I happen to think that Jane would be in pretty good shape with reserved bus lanes and minor grade separation just to clear some intersections (e.g. Lawrence) where there are road width restrictions.

Or streetcar in mixed traffic.

 

[nfitz]

Your morning smile:

Give us this one venue to hold rational healthy debate, contributory discussion, and receive relevant feedback and support.

It's pretty clear that in the eyes of many here, rational healthy debate is limited to only to anti-LRT comments. If you eliminate those who oppose the save our subways plan, you don't have healthy debate. You just want a big group of yes men!

 

[gweed123]

Your morning smile:

It's pretty clear that in the eyes of many here, rational healthy debate is limited to only to anti-LRT comments. If you eliminate those who oppose the save our subways plan, you don't have healthy debate. You just want a big group of yes men!

If you would like a rational healthy debate then I am up for it. Please outline your reasons why a Sheppard LRT is the better option compared to a subway to STC. And please do not use "because it's already started construction" as a reason, because that has nothing to do with the validity of the planning argument.

 

[GraphicMatt]

You're framing the debate incorrectly in assuming that that political and funding realities would facilitate a subway as easily as they would the current LRT plan. It's not a question of better. It's a question of what we're likely to get.

Is an LRT better than nothing? I think so. Is it better than subway in this corridor? I don't know, really; I don't live there. Is this corridor where the city should be spending money on subways right now? No.

 

[nfitz]

If you would like a rational healthy debate then I am up for it. Please outline your reasons why a Sheppard LRT is the better option compared to a subway to STC.

Because it's fully funded and construction has already started. A subway to Scarborough Centre would cost on the order of $2 to $2.5-billion - far more than is in the budget.

While a subway might well be a better transit and technical solution, it's not a realistic solution. The choice here isn't LRT or subway. It's building somethine now, rather than not building something now.

 

[gweed123]

Because it's fully funded and construction has already started. A subway to Scarborough Centre would cost on the order of $2 to $2.5-billion - far more than is in the budget.

While a subway might well be a better transit and technical solution, it's not a realistic solution. The choice here isn't LRT or subway. It's building somethine now, rather than not building something now.

I'm sorry, but I think that an "it's better than nothing" argument is total and utter BS. I don't want to have my tax dollars spent on an "it's better than nothing" solution, only to have the government turn around in 25 years or so and go "you know what? we really didn't think that one through, it really does need a subway".

What bugs me even more is the fact that A STUDY WAS ALREADY DONE, and determined that a) subway was the better option, and b) that it should be started immediately. That plan was dumped when Miller was elected, and they started from scratch, threw out the COMPLETED Don Mills-Vic Park EA, and decided to make their own new plan. It must also be noted that the original EA for the SELRT was rejected, it was only when they released an abbreviated EA that it was reluctantly approved.

And how do you know that a subway would not have been approved? Spadina, which was proposed, EA'd, and funded under the RTES plan (same as Sheppard) received full funding. Why would Sheppard have been any different?

The political climate didn't reject subways in favour of LRTs, the politicans did...

 

[DavidH]

The political climate didn't reject subways in favour of LRTs, the politicans did...

Okay, so let's say that SOS is successful in getting the next mayor of Toronto push for a subway on Sheppard. The current project gets cancelled, despite partial construction, and a subway project begins. The EA takes a year or two.

What happens if, as is certainly possible, the PCs win? Do you REALLY think that given a huge budget deficit and the post-Davis PC position on transit that they are going to step up and fund a subway extension?

The end result will be that Sheppard will get NOTHING for the foreseeable future. Yes, possibly in 25 years a subway WILL get built, but there are no guarantees.

Saying "let's not build what is being built now" is a risky strategy.

 

[Ansem]

^^^^

Bravo...

Politicians and their ego...

What do you think will happen if one of Miller's boy doesn't get elected? You think Transit City will be build like MIller wanted??? Anyone saying yes is either naive or doesn't follow politics.

New parties or leaders tends to overwrite their predecessors' legacy.

Miller did it to Lastman.

If Smithersman or someone who's not from Miller's cliq gets elected, that person will overwrite Miller's Legacy as well

 

[Ansem]

Okay, so let's say that SOS is successful in getting the next mayor of Toronto push for a subway on Sheppard. The current project gets cancelled, despite partial construction, and a subway project begins. The EA takes a year or two.

What happens if, as is certainly possible, the PCs win? Do you REALLY think that given a huge budget deficit and the post-Davis PC position on transit that they are going to step up and fund a subway extension?

The end result will be that Sheppard will get NOTHING for the foreseeable future. Yes, possibly in 25 years a subway WILL get built, but there are no guarantees.

Saying "let's not build what is being built now" is a risky strategy.

Our report will answer your questions

 

[GraphicMatt]

Our report will answer your questions

Does your report also do magic tricks?

Aside from making itself invisible, I mean.

 

[Ansem]

Does your report also do magic tricks?

Aside from making itself invisible, I mean.

patience my friend

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Ansem:

Anyone saying yes is either naive or doesn't follow politics.

You seem to have a rather naive view towards transit politics in the city. Please remind me what is the singular effect of regieme change on transit in the say, oh last 25 years?

Let me answer it for you - projects getting cancelled and nothing got built. And if you think that there is more inertia for building a subway after you canned an LRT line, you are probably even more mistaken. As DavidH mentioned, no politician is crazy enough to force a new EA for a line like that (and if they do, I would be more suspicious of their intent for using it to delay and ultimately scrap projects, not replacing them with the "right choice") - not to mention the even more difficult act of scraping up yet another, more cost intensive tripartite funding agreement that necessitated multi-jurisdictional political maneuvering. If I were you, the SOS should pick their fights and focus on DRL and Eglinton instead. And it's too bad, because BD extension would have been a more appropriate solution and a much more worthwhile battle IMO.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

Okay, so let's say that SOS is successful in getting the next mayor of Toronto push for a subway on Sheppard. The current project gets cancelled, despite partial construction, and a subway project begins. The EA takes a year or two.

What happens if, as is certainly possible, the PCs win? Do you REALLY think that given a huge budget deficit and the post-Davis PC position on transit that they are going to step up and fund a subway extension?

The end result will be that Sheppard will get NOTHING for the foreseeable future. Yes, possibly in 25 years a subway WILL get built, but there are no guarantees.

Saying "let's not build what is being built now" is a risky strategy.

The EA for Sheppard from Don Mills to Vic Park was already completed before Miller took office. An update to that EA would take a matter of months, not years.

And call me an optimist, but I really don't think a new provincial government coming in would have the balls to just cancel 3 major provincial plans (Metrolinx RTP, Places to Grow Act, Greenbelt Act, because the 3 are all intertwined). And if they did, rest assured every planner and every city council (city councils across the GTHA have been spending millions updating their land use plans in order to conform to these 3 acts) would be pissed off that they spent that money for nothing.

Again, call me an optimist, but I think that the current political climate in favour of transit expansion (not for any specific mode of transit, just transit in general) is here to stay. The environmentalist movement, coupled with the popular view that we are way behind on transit and infrastructure construction, I would think would doom any politician who would try and stop it.

 

[SimonP]

Ansem:



You seem to have a rather naive view towards transit politics in the city. And please remind me what is the singular effect of regieme change on transit in the say, oh last 25 years?

Let me answer it for you - projects getting cancelled and nothing got built. And if you think that there is more inertia for building a subway after you canned an LRT line, you are probably even more mistaken. As DavidH mentioned, no politician is crazy enough to force a new EA for a line like that (and if they do, I would be more suspicious of their intent for using it to delay and ultimately scrap projects, not replacing them with the "right choice") - not to mention the even more difficult act of scraping up yet another, more cost intensive tripartite funding agreement that necessitated multi-jurisdictional political maneuvering. If I were you, the SOS should pick their fights and focus on DRL and Eglinton instead.

AoD

I agree there is a lot of political naivete on this thread. The goal of SOS is to essentially serve as lobbyists for more subway lines. How real lobbyists get results is not be presenting great, fact filled reports, it is by convincing elected officials that it is in their political interest to agree with them.

Why would McGuinty ever agree to a Sheppard subway line? The seats in that area are bedrock Liberal, he doesn't need to spend billions on votes he already has. It makes much much sense to send lines up into York region, as the 905 is the swing region that decides every election.

Why would the 15 councillors who represent wards along Finch ever vote for a transit plan that doesn't include the Finch LRT? Their constituents will end up paying higher taxes with no visible improvements, and that will cost them votes. Transit City hits almost every ward. You need 50% of council to pass something, but you need consensus on council for any hope of getting higher levels of government to help out.

Why would Harper ever provide 1/3 funding for any transit plans south of Eglinton? The Conservatives get no votes there. Minor projects like the Sheppard LRT can get funding, as the Tories can't be seen to completely neglect Toronto, but how is it in their political interest to spend billions in downtown Toronto?