saveoursubways (SOS)

[Rainforest]

Because LRT provides higher passenger capacity than bus lanes. Bus lanes simply cannot provide adequate capacity to provide good service on high volume bus corridors such as Eglinton, Sheppard, Finch, etc, because of the limited capacity of buses. However, subways are prohibitively expensive to build (it would cost about $40 billion to build all of Transit City as subway, which is money we do not have) and their very high capacity is not needed. The Transit City plan provides better service to a larger area (and thus more customers) than the alternative of one or two fairly short subway lines with overcrowded feeder buses (even if they run in reserved lanes), even though subway is faster (though not by much, if the subway stops frequently).

I am not suggesting that we build LRT on every major artery right away, I am just saying that building a parallel relief line is an option, which is prohibitively expensive, if an LRT line reaches capacity.

I share the concern about bus lanes and their capacities. And the cost of adding bus lanes can be nontrivial if the road has to be widened and properties acquired. Once those costs are incurred, it might be more effective to build LRT which has higher capacity limit and lower operation costs.

On the other hand, multiple LRT lines are not always better than one subway line; that depends on the area. Speaking of Finch E / Sheppard E / Ellesmere, if the ultimate goal is to build an LRT line on each of those streets, those 3 LRT lines would cost substantially more than the extended Sheppard subway (because there would be 3 of them, and each would be much longer than the subway). Hence, they would take longer to build (longer to get the funding).

The best option I can think of for this corridor, is to push Sheppard subway further east (to Agincourt, if STC is unaffordable at this time), and operate multiple bus routes running east and north off that terminus. That means that residents of Finch E and Ellesmere (east of Kennedy) who need to travel west, will have a direct bus connection to the subway. Many residents of Markham will have a direct bus connection to the subway, as well. The scheme would work even better if frequent GO service from Agincourt Stn to Union is established.

The above scheme would not work if we build Sheppard East LRT as planned(to Don Mills). Those who live near Sheppard E will use that line, but others will not be eager to take a bus to transfer to LRT to transfer to Sheppard subway.

Since Sheppard East LRT is already funded and construction is about to start, I would not call to cancel it. Such cancellation would risk the allocated funds, and create confusion amongst the general (not transit-minded) public. A better course is a call for upgrade of the western portion of the line (Don Mills - Agincourt) from LRT to subway, and keep the rest as LRT. Since the construction starts conveniently from the east (a carhouse near Meadowvale is planned), there is a chance to keep building the LRT and at the same time push the subway forward, till they meet at Agincourt.

 

[Dan416]

Since Sheppard East LRT is already funded and construction is about to start, I would not call to cancel it. Such cancellation would risk the allocated funds, and create confusion amongst the general (not transit-minded) public. A better course is a call for upgrade of the western portion of the line (Don Mills - Agincourt) from LRT to subway, and keep the rest as LRT. Since the construction starts conveniently from the east (a carhouse near Meadowvale is planned), there is a chance to keep building the LRT and at the same time push the subway forward, till they meet at Agincourt.

I think that's an acceptable compromise and a good way to sell the plan. Something will be needed on Sheppard East beyond where the subway will go (I don't see it ever going beyond Agincourt anyway).

 

[nfitz]

Yeah, I think you've both nailed it. That would sell it a lot better.

 

[Dan416]

Upgrade definitely has a better ring to it than cancel after all. And it's definitely an upgrade in every sense of the word.

 

[Ansem]

Upgrade

Maybe it would be more productive to use our arguments to demonstrate that Subway is needed between Dowsnview to STC instead of bashing the LRT.

Promoting an upgrade makes us look like pro-transit and we'll have a more positive image. Bashing the LRT will give make us look negative, anti-transit and Nimbys

So

Downsview to STC via Agincourt-->Subway
Agincourt to Zoo-->LRT

Arguments for upgrading to subway

-Major rapid transit hubs along the same corridors need to be link by rapid transit as well
-2 downtowns, major residential medium and high rises, consumers area
-Economic growth, employment ect...
-return of investments (attracts new residents/owners/business) In the long term, this will increase the city revenue through taxes

(let's keep on adding some arguments)



(

 

[W. K. Lis]

The deadline for objections (in writing to the Ministry) was February 9, 2009, for the Sheppard East LRT. Did you?

 

[Rainforest]

The deadline for objections (in writing to the Ministry) was February 9, 2009, for the Sheppard East LRT. Did you?

That deadline is probably not relevant. Objections submitted before the deadline can be easily ignored, yet the project may be reconsidered after the deadline if there is substantial public support for that.

Note that the "upgrade" formulation means virtually zero downside risk. Once LRT construction in the east progresses substantially, rail service along all of Sheppard east is virtually guaranteed to be completed. Successful bid for upgrade would mean that the subway / LRT boundary shifts east. If the upgrade is rejected by the funding entity, fall-back option (and the funding) to pull the LRT line to Don Mills is still there.

 

[Rainforest]

Arguments for upgrading to subway

-Major rapid transit hubs along the same corridors need to be link by rapid transit as well
-2 downtowns, major residential medium and high rises, consumers area
-Economic growth, employment ect...
-return of investments (attracts new residents/owners/business) In the long term, this will increase the city revenue through taxes

(let's keep on adding some arguments)

(

Some thoughts:
-Sheppard subway can eventually become the main E-W crosstown route in the north of 416. The City of Toronto is about 36-km wide in the north, and this is beyond the range of comfortable ride on LRT (22-23 kph). There is no E-W rail line across the north to establish GO service (York sub is 5 km further north).
-Extended subway can anchor bus routes, and possibly LRT lines, serving the north-east of GTA, and Markham.

 

[Fresh Start]

For the same amount of money, you can build either ONE subway line or several parallel LRT lines. This is not superfluous at all, it provides greater coverage by increasing the number of people who are within walking distance of higher-order transit.

Your subway proposal totally ignores people on Finch East or York Mills/Ellesmere, who will have at best a minimal improvement in service as they will have to take a bus 2km north or south to use the Sheppard subway. With the LRT proposal, there is at least a reasonable chance that they will get higher-order transit in their lifetimes.

See this for a cost comparison.

Being "within walking distance of higher-order transit" really means nothing if you're going to experience a longer and more unreliable commute cross-town overall. In terms of penetrating where the greatest concentration of people live, a bus service running directly into communties, along residential streets, is a better system than having residents walk for long distances out to their "local" LRT stop and await its 5 minutes scheduled arrival time.

That buses have a wider coverage area is a fact that should not be lost to us, neither is the relunctance many people will have to transfer onto a streetcar destined for the subway when the bus route will also terminate at the subway. What incentive is there for one to disembark one mode for another, especially when buses can prove to be faster (not serving every stop, beating a changing light)? The subway is the marquee destination for either bus or LRT travel, which infers to us that people prefer that mode on a level that LRT cannot compete at. And in terms of cost, BRT or even just express bus corridors along major arterials will win out both.

People along Finch East and Ellesmere would benefit far more from a Sheppard Subway extension than introducing LRT along those corridors. That the 39 bus is so well used isn't a case for LRT but rather an indication that lack of mass transit in the northeast leaves residents no viable alternative than to ride west along it to Yonge. Once the Sheppard and SRT extensions are in place, two more reliable options would become available. Ellesmere's even better. Commute times from SCC to UTSC on the 38 bus can be as breif as 13 minutes. Again not a case for LRT along every corridor, but rather, one for reduced distance in-between the subway and far-flung communities and nodal areas. Extending the subway to SCC cuts that distance in half.

 

[Ansem]

Arguments for upgrading to subway​

-Major rapid transit hubs along the same corridors need to be link by rapid transit as well

-2 downtowns, major residential medium and high rises, consumers area

-Economic growth, employment ect...

-return of investments (attracts new residents/owners/business) In the long term, this will increase the city revenue through taxes

-Sheppard subway can eventually become the main E-W crosstown route in the north of 416. The City of Toronto is about 36-km wide in the north, and this is beyond the range of comfortable ride on LRT (22-23 kph). There is no E-W rail line across the north to establish GO service (York sub is 5 km further north).

-Extended subway can anchor bus routes, and possibly LRT lines, serving the north-east of GTA, and Markham.

(let's keep on adding some arguments)

 

[nfitz]

Sheppard subway can eventually become the main E-W crosstown route in the north of 416. The City of Toronto is about 36-km wide in the north, and this is beyond the range of comfortable ride on LRT (22-23 kph).

So now we are proposing 30-km of subway? That's about $10-billion. I can think of quite a few places that I'd put subway first ...

And 36-km ... at 30 km/hr ... that's a 72-minute ride ... not that much better than the 94 minutes LRT would take. And yet a Vancouver Skytrain can do it in 48 minutes.

 

[kEiThZ]

So now we are proposing 30-km of subway? That's about $10-billion. I can think of quite a few places that I'd put subway first ...

How is it 30 km? The eastern extension to STC is 8 - 9 km and the western extension to Downsview is a little over 5 km. That's 14 km at best.

And 36-km ... at 30 km/hr ... that's a 72-minute ride ... not that much better than the 94 minutes LRT would take. And yet a Vancouver Skytrain can do it in 48 minutes.

1) There's a big difference between 72 and 94 minutes.
2) It's not just 94 minutes when you probably have to transfer from LRT to subway and then again from subway to bus.

 

[Rainforest]

So now we are proposing 30-km of subway? That's about $10-billion. I can think of quite a few places that I'd put subway first ...

I am not proposing a 30-km Sheppard subway anytime soon. Certainly there are many routes of higher priority.

In the next few years, the intent is just to add the 5.5-km section (Don Mills to Agincourt), rather than LRT on that fragment. Hence, the network configuration will be consistent with future subway extension (as well as provide a number of immediate benefits).

Future extension can be spaced over years, say, work on Yonge-Downsview starts in 10 years, Agincourt to STC in 15 years, west of Downsview in 20 years - so it won't interfere with urgent projects like DRL.

And 36-km ... at 30 km/hr ... that's a 72-minute ride ... not that much better than the 94 minutes LRT would take. And yet a Vancouver Skytrain can do it in 48 minutes.

True; but do we want to abandon (or totally re-work) the existing segment and aim to get something as fast as Skytrain? Perhaps it is easier to make the existing subway a little faster (35 kph - doable?)

Besides, few people make a trip from Meadowvale to Humber College. The subway would provide a decent travel time if you need to cover 60% or 70% of that distance (say STC to Jane/Sheppard - 22 km, 35 kph - comes to 38 min).

The proposed LRT "crosstown" would be too slow even for that kind of trips (say Sheppard/Brimley to Jane/Finch - 23 km [including the bypass on Don Mills], 23 kph - comes to 1 hour already; what if a connecting bus needs to be taken first ...)

 

[andomano]

Some thoughts:
-Sheppard subway can eventually become the main E-W crosstown route in the north of 416.

Wasn't this the idea of Subway 401 from the EPT group?

 

[Rainforest]

Wasn't this the idea of Subway 401 from the EPT group?

Good point, that link should be used as a reference.