Sammy Yatim Shooting

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

My thinking was where are those gun toting gangstas when they'd been useful. Illegal conceal carry saves the day?

Never. Idiots who conceal carry almost always shoot themselves or bystanders. Despite the TV-bred idiocy about handguns, they're not accurate and they're very difficult to use properly in an enclosed environment when you're stressed.

 

[APTA-2048]

The amount of "shoot him in the leg" comments...

 

[Admiral Beez]

The amount of "shoot him in the leg" comments...

Indeed. I'm not surprised the officer shot Yatim initially, as policed are trained that within 20 or so feet a knife is deadly even if you have a gun. If he's stopped at the first three shots after Yatim was dropped I'd say there would be no serious charges.

 

[BurlOak]

Yatim being tazered well after the shots were fired seems to show that even the second officer felt that the threat still existed at that time.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The "red tape" involved to use the taser is more than the "red tape" involved to use a pistol. It should be the other way around.

 

[Cooper]

Yatim being tazered well after the shots were fired seems to show that even the second officer felt that the threat still existed at that time.

Or that the cops were flipped out by the circumstances. But that's for the jury to decide. From what I've seen in the trial coverage so far, the streetcar driver seems to be the only person who kept a cool head, even though he scared shitless.

 

[James]

If you read Christie Blatchford's writeup on the situation from Chad Seymour, the TTC driver's, point of view, one would most certainly give the driver credit for trying to contain the threat while waiting for police to arrive.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...did-the-right-things-in-sammy-yatim-encounter

 

[NorthYorkEd]

Yatim being tazered well after the shots were fired seems to show that even the second officer felt that the threat still existed at that time.

My first thought was that this was done to help establish a "we tazed him, but he kept coming" story, should one be needed.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I have to say, it looks like Forcillo applied his training. Anyone with a knife is deadly and that drawing your gun is required. And, you only draw your gun if you intend to use it.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...yone-officer-who-shot-sammy-yatim-tells-court

At this point, Brauti switched gears again, and moved to the sort of training Forcillo received at both the OPC and the Toronto Police College, which Forcillo wryly described as “like a finishing school” for officers headed for the streets of the city.

One featured role-play scenarios where officers faced people with edged weapons, but the other concentrated on the real-life story of two rookie constables, Clayton Speers and Dave Edgar of the Barrie Police north of Toronto, who in July of 2009 had their throats slashed by a mentally ill man armed with a knife. Both officers lost almost half their blood, but managed to shoot the man dead.

The “takeaway” for Forcillo, as Brauti put it, was that “knives are deadly weapons” and that “drawing your firearm is the appropriate response” to someone with a knife.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Wonder if the influence of video games had something to do with this? Most shooting games don't have "innocent" victims within them, they just have the "combatant" keep shooting and shooting without penalty. That sort of thinking or reflexes may have carried over to real life, which is wrong.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Wonder if the influence of video games had something to do with this? Most shooting games don't have "innocent" victims within them, they just have the "combatant" keep shooting and shooting without penalty. That sort of thinking or reflexes may have carried over to real life, which is wrong.

No, it's simply a combination of the character/psychological profile the police prefer for their recruits and the influence of police training of how to deal with persons in mental distress who are armed with edge or blunt weapons (as opposed to fire arms). If I'm trained that anyone with a knife is a deadly threat, especially within 25-30 feet, instructed that my gun offers me a 15-25 percent hit probability, and that when I shoot I am to keep shooting until the threat is eliminated, when heck, I'm going to follow my training. Notice how there's little mention of deescalation training in the reporting thus far.

15-25 percent hit probability http://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...in-the-details-of-officer-involved-shootings/

What we need is a new way to deal with insane folks armed with edged or blunt objects. How do the police in Britain do it, when most officers are not armed with guns?

 

[nfitz]

"Forcillo also told the court Thursday that he had unholstered his weapon on about a dozen occasions while on duty ..."

That surprises me. A dozen unholsterings in only 3 years on the force, working on patrol? I've talked with a few officers in various forces over the years with much longer careers over the years, and when it's come up, they've never pulled out their gun, or maybe only once or twice.

I'd have thought averaging twice a year would be a major red flag, to whoever in the division is getting the incident reports. Could this be a systemic failure?

What we need is a new way to deal with insane folks armed with edged or blunt objects. How do the police in Britain do it, when most officers are not armed with guns?

You talk to them calmly and kindly, and treat them like humans.

It's clear from the testimony, that the driver was interacting with the victim. Had the police response to be simply talk calmly, ask him how he's doing (even if the gun is drawn just in case), and ask if there was someone they could call ... then we wouldn't have ever have known about this. No, it won't work with everyone - but based on earlier, it would have worked here - the victim was clearly in distress and aware he needed help.

 

[nfitz]

Following up on my surprise that Foricillo has drawn his gun a dozen times 3 years, I found the stats.

There's about 5,4000 Toronto police, and in 2014, they drew a gun 186 times. So only 0.03 times a year on average; in a 30-year career, on average, one would be expected to pull a gun once.

But Foricillo averaged four times a year for 3 years! That's about 120 times more likely than average.

How does that not raise questions in the department.

Hmm, someone is pointing to another report ... the 186 number comes from City news, but they seem to have used the "Handgun - Drawn only" and not the "Firearm Pointed at Person" and "Firearm Discharge - Intentional" entries. Which would be a total of 1299 times in 2013. Still about once every 4 years, rather than 4 times a year. And still an outlier.

 

[Admiral Beez]

My prediction is that Forcillo is acquitted on all charges, with perhaps an official reprimand and temporary demotion. TPS training showed him how to identify and react to threats, and the courts will decide that with the situational awareness, info and training Forcillo had, he did little wrong. Maybe this will be followed by training updates or an inquiry on how to deal with armed insane folks.

 

[Palma]

Yatim being tazered well after the shots were fired seems to show that even the second officer felt that the threat still existed at that time.

Well that is ridiculous if that what he thought. I saw the video and all those offers were all standing there.They sure did not look scared or worried. Of course not, because they knew they had guns.