Rob Ford's Toronto

[W. K. Lis]

The rule is:

HTA section
166. (1) Where a person in charge of a vehicle or on a bicycle or on horseback or leading a horse on a highway overtakes a street car or a car of an electric railway, operated in or near the centre of the roadway, which is stationary for the purpose of taking on or discharging passengers, he or she shall not pass the car or approach nearer than 2 metres measured back from the rear or front entrance or exit, as the case may be, of the car on the side on which passengers are getting on or off until the passengers have got on or got safely to the side of the street, as the case may be, but this subsection does not apply where a safety zone has been set aside and designated by a by-law passed under section 9, 10 or 11 of the Municipal Act, 2001 or under section 7 or 8 of the City of Toronto Act, 2006, as the case may be. 2006, c. 32, Sched. C, s. 24 (6).

Its the "passengers are getting on or off" that may confuse some people. I would stop behind the rearmost door, even if they are not open but people getting on the front doors, because the rear doors could open at any time.

 

[nfitz]

Its the "passengers are getting on or off" that may confuse some people. I would stop behind the rearmost door, even if they are not open but people getting on the front doors, because the rear doors could open at any time.

The other issue is that your supposed to stop for people to get on and off. That's BEFORE the doors open. If the streetcar stops, and you keep driving, your just as guilty, even if the doors don't open. The driver often doesn't open the doors if it looks like a car driver won't stop.

I've gotten into arguments with car drivers who blew through the back doors before, and then stopped - and they seemed absolutely ignorant that they were supposed to stop before the doors open.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The other issue is that your supposed to stop for people to get on and off. That's BEFORE the doors open. If the streetcar stops, and you keep driving, your just as guilty, even if the doors don't open. The driver often doesn't open the doors if it looks like a car driver won't stop.

I've gotten into arguments with car drivers who blew through the back doors before, and then stopped - and they seemed absolutely ignorant that they were supposed to stop before the doors open.

Rolling stops don't count.

 

[W. K. Lis]

During an impromptu scrum Tuesday, as reported by the Globe and Mail, he said:

“Now if I’m wrong, if you have to stay behind the bus when the backdoors are shut and the front doors are open, I never knew that. I talked to Andy Byford and asked him, ‘What is the rules on that one? When the backdoor’s shut are you allowed to move up to the next set of doors?’ As far as I know, yes. And everybody does it.”

"Bus"?

He could have used "trolley", "tram", "tramway", as synonyms for "streetcar" or some non-English word for "streetcar", but instead used the word "bus". I may accept it if he was a tourist from the States, but he had allegedly grew up in Toronto. If you grew up in Toronto, you should be able to call a "streetcar", a "streetcar".

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Mayor Rob Ford says he didn’t drive past open streetcar door

Daniel Dale
Urban Affairs Reporter


Mayor Rob Ford says he did not illegally drive past the open front door of a streetcar on Dundas St. W. last Wednesday, as the president of the union representing TTC workers alleged last week — and the union president believes him.

Ford, speaking Tuesday in a rare media scrum in the City Hall press office, said he drove past the closed back door but stopped in advance of the open front door.

The driver then “came out and accosted me,†Ford alleged. Referring to the streetcar as a bus, Ford said: “I don’t know exactly what was said. He says, ‘Get behind the bus.’ I don’t have to get behind the bus, the back door’s closed.

“I talked to (TTC chief executive) Andy Byford,†Ford said, “and asked him, ‘What is the rules on that one? When the back door’s shut, are you allowed to move up to the next set of doors?’ As far as I know, yes. And everybody does it.â€

Police Staff Sgt. David Stirling confirmed that the Highway Traffic Act requires drivers to stay back two metres only from a door that is open. He added that it is still “probably most prudent and safe†for drivers to stay behind the streetcar entirely if the front door is open and back door is closed.

Bob Kinnear, president of Local 113 Amalgamated Transit Union, said he now accepts that Ford stopped before the open front door. (He had said last week that he was not entirely sure what had happened.) But he said the mayor still endangered passengers’ safety by passing the closed back door.

“Even if the front door’s open, you’re not to pass the rear doors. Because the rear doors are active. What I mean by that is any passenger, at any time, can step down onto the steps and exit the streetcar,†Kinnear said.

Last week, Kinnear said that he had been told Ford passed an open door. He said the driver then left his seat “to advise the motorist, not knowing it was Mayor Ford, of the seriousness of the violation, as well as the concern for our passengers.â€

Ford called Byford directly to complain about the driver’s conduct. The driver was told not to leave his seat in the future, but he was not disciplined.

 

[spider]

So, if a driver comes upon a streetcar that is stopped with all the doors closed and no passengers in sight that driver is allowed to blow by the streetcar at the posted limit? Maybe so but that is stupid.

If a driver comes upon a streetcar that is stopped, the rear doors are closed, the front doors are open but no passengers are in sight he must stop behind the open doors and so he should. But for how long, forever?

I don't drive in streetcar country very much but I have often stopped in the second scenario offered above and waited for a very long time before edging up to get eye contact with the operator and have him wave me by without an explanation as to why he is stopped with the doors open.

 

[Peepers]

I've gotten into arguments with car drivers who blew through the back doors before, and then stopped - and they seemed absolutely ignorant that they were supposed to stop before the doors open.

If this is what the law says then the TTC needs to change the signs on the back of the streetcars which simply state that it is illegal to pass an open door.

image credit: Toronto Sun

Bob Kinnear now says he believes Ford when he says he did not pass an open rear door but he say's it is still dangerous because the rear door was "active". If that is the case then every second of the day that streetcars are operating countless lives are being put at risk because most drivers will drive past the rear doors when they are closed.

 

[ttk77]

If a streetcar is stopped, especially if the front door is open, then chances are that the back door is "active". This means that the driver isn't controlling those back doors and at any time a passenger could trigger the door mechanism simply by walking onto the steps inside the streetcar in an attempt to get off. It can be difficult to see from the road what's going on in the streetcar, so if you attempt to pass when it's in this state you run the risk of hitting someone with your car. Is this really a chance anyone should want to take? The laws are there for a reason.

 

[Peepers]

If a streetcar is stopped, especially if the front door is open, then chances are that the back door is "active". This means that the driver isn't controlling those back doors and at any time a passenger could trigger the door mechanism simply by walking onto the steps inside the streetcar in an attempt to get off. It can be difficult to see from the road what's going on in the streetcar, so if you attempt to pass when it's in this state you run the risk of hitting someone with your car. Is this really a chance anyone should want to take? The laws are there for a reason.

It seems that the laws are very deficient. The signs should say "do not pass a stopped streetcar" .

 

[rm20010]

But if the passengers have all finished boarding and exiting the (stopped) streetcar, cars should be allowed to pass the streetcar, else it creates an unnecessary bottleneck preventing cars from turning right on red.

Perhaps a better rule would be, if a driver approaches a streetcar that has just come to a halt at a stop, that they remain behind the streetcar for a dozen or so seconds in case there are passengers existing the streetcar before passing by closed doors.

Or there should be more island platforms.

 

[nfitz]

If this is what the law says then the TTC needs to change the signs on the back of the streetcars which simply state that it is illegal to pass an open door.

The signs clearly say that it's not legal to pass an open door. This is 100% correct. Of course, at times it's not legal to pass a closed door as well. If the streetcar has stopped to discharge passengers, the driver won't open the door, if it's clear that a motor vehicle isn't going to stop - this doesn't mean that motor vehicle is in the right. The Highway Traffic Act Section 166(2) which all drivers must study before being licenced, makes no mentions of doors being open or closed. It talks instead of streetcars being stationary for the purpose of taking on or discharging passengers. If the streetcar stops to let off passengers, you can't pass it period.

Yes, the signs should be clearer. Perhaps the law should be adjusted and stops should be painted clearly on the road, so that it's illegal to pass a streetcar at a stop, under any circumstance, unless the driver has activated his 4-way flasher or something to indicate a mechanical problem.

 

[ttk77]

But if the passengers have all finished boarding and exiting the (stopped) streetcar, cars should be allowed to pass the streetcar, else it creates an unnecessary bottleneck preventing cars from turning right on red.

Perhaps a better rule would be, if a driver approaches a streetcar that has just come to a halt at a stop, that they remain behind the streetcar for a dozen or so seconds in case there are passengers existing the streetcar before passing by closed doors.

Or there should be more island platforms.

In a perfect world everyone would be waiting by the door for their stop and would all disembark at the same time when the streetcar comes to a stop. Unfortunately, a lot of people wait until after the streetcar stops before even leaving their seat. This means that the door can close after people get off, and it would appear that it's safe to pass, but then a few seconds later the stragglers rush out the door without looking because the streetcar is about to pull away and they don't want to miss their stop. If a streetcar is stopped in front of a transit stop, there's really no way of knowing when it's safe to pass, so it's just best to wait for it to start moving again.

More island platforms would be nice, but not really practical on streets like Queen and King. Barring another east/west subway line magically appearing between King and Queen, I wonder if it would make things easier if either Adelaide or Richmond were turned into a streetcar only road so that both King and Queen cars could divert through the core.

 

[adma]

I do sometimes pass rear closed doors. But *very* defensively and cautiously, rather than a blithe "okay, doors closed, now move forward".

 

[BurlOak]

I do sometimes pass rear closed doors. But *very* defensively and cautiously, rather than a blithe "okay, doors closed, now move forward".

It sound like Ford could not have been travelling too fast past the back doors if he was able to stop before the front doors.

 

[ShonTron]

So Ford might not have crossed the doors. Interesting. But of course, we always expect the worst from our Chief Magistrate, and it's still crazy that he goes whining to his new head of the TTC which results in this blowing up in the media.

I rarely drive downtown, but if I see a streetcar stopping at a stop, I would expect the rear doors to open and stop accordingly. When the rear doors close, I'll creep up to a point behind the closed doors, which is perfectly legal and safe. I'll always do the same on my bike, and if it's a long time loading, I'll get off the bike and walk across.

This will become very interesting when the new cars arrive and enter revenue service next year.