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Rob Ford's Toronto

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Asterix said:
While depriving nearly 20km of the Eglinton LRT route that will be stuck with buses and won't be getting better LRT, let alone subway, while providing negligible difference in service and capacity to the tunnel section will be a huge win how?
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Future extensions will be logical? Unless some NDP asshole 10 years down the road decides to extend both sides of the Eglinton subway with LRT; then watch for a repeat.

It's not 20km, btw, they cut the route significantly when the transit cuts were announced in May.
 
spider said:
If it is "right around the capacity for an LRT line" unless ridership is expected to shrink isn't this the time to build a subway?
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Meaning there is plenty of additional capacity available within the LRT framework, not that it is maxed out.

As rbt has explained in numerical detail before, you simply are not going to be able to put Yonge line passenger loading on Eglinton, even with a 401 of subway lines because there is simply no where for those people to go. You won't even be able to get within spitting distance of those kinds of numbers.
 
Filip said:
Future extensions will be logical? Unless some NDP asshole 10 years down the road decides to extend both sides of the Eglinton subway with LRT; then watch for a repeat.
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Future subway extensions at costs many times that of LRT, and for a line that will not justify subway level capacity. Stop this continual demands for gravy train spending on something that is far beyond what is required.

It's not 20km, btw, they cut the route significantly when the transit cuts were announced in May.
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True, I stand corrected. You are still depriving all those surface kms of Eglinton of improved transit while providing negligible difference in service and capacity to the tunneled portion compared to what is currently planned. That is wasteful spending.
 
Asterix said:
Future subway extensions at costs many times that of LRT, and for a line that will not justify subway level capacity. Stop this continual demands for gravy train spending on something that is far beyond what is required.



True, I stand corrected. You are still depriving all those surface kms of Eglinton of improved transit while providing negligible difference in service and capacity to the tunneled portion compared to what is currently planned. That is wasteful spending.
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Not really, that central portion will become a magnet attracting hordes of express buses running up and down Eglinton.. Just like Sheppard had when it was neutered.

The city has a strong appetite for subways. The Globe and Mail states that 83% of the population wish to see subway instead of LRT, that's an overwhelming mandate for Ford to get it done. Subways are an excellent investment into the future. It's not a gravy train if it will serve the city for decades and centuries to come.
 
Filip said:
Not really, that central portion will become a magnet attracting hordes of express buses running up and down Eglinton.. Just like Sheppard had when it was neutered.

The city has a strong appetite for subways. The Globe and Mail states that 83% of the population wish to see subway instead of LRT, that's an overwhelming mandate for Ford to get it done. Subways are an excellent investment into the future. It's not a gravy train if it will serve the city for decades and centuries to come.
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I would only believe that if the question was whether you support subway + 20% property tax raise to cover the differences. I am generally against streetcars (almost every 680 transit update says everybody is delayed, but subway is running smoothly) , but unless I see some proof that we can afford subway, we have to take what we can get. I also question whether we have enough density to support a subway. Building another money losing operation is the last thing we need. I am all for subway if it's affordable and profitable, but that's a big if.
 
archanfel said:
I would only believe that if the question was whether you support subway + 20% property tax raise to cover the differences. I am generally against streetcars (almost every 680 transit update says everybody is delayed, but subway is running smoothly) , but unless I see some proof that we can afford subway, we have to take what we can get. I also question whether we have enough density to support a subway. Building another money losing operation is the last thing we need. I am all for subway if it's affordable and profitable, but that's a big if.
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Sheppard only lost money in the first few years. It's now paying for itself and ridership is shattering TTC projections.

If we have $5 billion (originally $9 billion) to throw at suburban streetcars and $4 billion on a tunnelled streetcar, we can throw that same money at subways which would do infinitely more things for the city than LRT could.
 
Filip said:
Sheppard only lost money in the first few years. It's now paying for itself and ridership is shattering TTC projections.

If we have $5 billion (originally $9 billion) to throw at suburban streetcars and $4 billion on a tunnelled streetcar, we can throw that same money at subways which would do infinitely more things for the city than LRT could.
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Can I ask for the source of those claims? Such as revenue/cost of the Sheppard Line. Projected cost of an Eglinton Subway line. Current transit city budget. Etc...

Again, I don't deny that subways are better. I just need to know they are affordable and profitable.
 
Filip said:
Not really, that central portion will become a magnet attracting hordes of express buses running up and down Eglinton.. Just like Sheppard had when it was neutered.
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Can you explain what this means?

By 'central portion', I presume you are talking about the planned tunneled section.

Are these express buses running to the ends of the line or continuing right across the tunneled section?

Where are these express buses coming from ('express' assumes they have only one or a very small number of stops before getting to their destination)?

Where are all these subway level numbers of passengers going to go? There is simply no room for their number on either the Yonge or University lines. See rbt's numerical explanation.

The city has a strong appetite for subways. The Globe and Mail states that 83% of the population wish to see subway instead of LRT, that's an overwhelming mandate for Ford to get it done. Subways are an excellent investment into the future. It's not a gravy train if it will serve the city for decades and centuries to come.
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I too have a strong appetite for subways, but I also want my tax dollars spent wisely. I don't want to spend $3 when the job can be done with less than $1. That is gravy train spending.

In the case of the DRL, it is my belief that there is not a surface running LRT solution available and so it will require subway level spending to build subway level capacity (ie an actual subway).

Eglinton, particularly in the surface running sections, does not have subway level demands.
 
Filip said:
Sheppard only lost money in the first few years. It's now paying for itself and ridership is shattering TTC projections.

If we have $5 billion (originally $9 billion) to throw at suburban streetcars and $4 billion on a tunnelled streetcar, we can throw that same money at subways which would do infinitely more things for the city than LRT could.
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But you have to realise the same people who want the Eglinton subway are the same people who want the "gravy train" to stop.
It shows how dumb many voters actually are.

And yes, I meant that it isn't at capacity now, it is just the right capacity to allow the projected growth for the next 20ish years, whereas a subway would be half filled during peak hours..
 
While it's nice that Eglinton could be converted in the future, if it's not a subway now it wont be made into one latter. Even if the TTC did suddenly decided to invest in upgrades to their infrastructure as demand grew, or finish what they started, it would likely cost twice as much to do so at a latter date. Sheppard is a testament to that.

Once it's built as an LRT it will stay that way.
 
GraphicMatt said:
Haha, never been north of Bloor, have you?
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I was making fun of RF's transit plan. I used to work on Eglinton West.... Those buses slow traffic down! Clearly RF hasn't been on E West.

Now that RF's been elected mayor, I reserve the right to diss him and his plans. :D
 
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Blog.to has a map showing the breakdown of the mayor's race by ward. It shows that the basically the old city of Toronto (with its streetcars) voted for Smitherman and not Ford.

20101028-mayoral-graphic.jpg


Shows us the auto addicted suburban part of the city go for Ford.
 
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