Rob Ford's Toronto

[junior43]

One juror could mess things up (if they don't plea to save the humiliation of a trial) but that just means another trial. Who cares? Let 'em go through the system like that if they want. It's not like you're going to get jury nullification.

Seriously, you guys are sounding a little crazy.

You're missing the point. They want re-trials and hung jury's. It's about delaying the inevitable or getting off on technicalities. There's also multiple instances of the crown giving up on retrials due to costs.

When it gets to court it isn't about getting re-elected or who likes you. It's about staying out of jail.

I would imagine the police and crown will have an iron clad case on him. Technicalities, hung jury's and delays are his only way out - outside of a plea, but I don't think they'll ever do that.

 

[euler]

Keep this in mind as well:
-CGPGrey about jury nullification-
There is a third option, even in the Rob Ford trials.

Not only is that insanely rare in Canada but an acquittal can be appealed here. That would be an incredibly improbable event.

 

[Johnny Au]

Not only is that insanely rare in Canada but an acquittal can be appealed here. That would be an incredibly improbable event.

Thank you for clarifying.

I never knew jury nullification is very much non-existent in Canada and appeals are used instead.

 

[zang]

One juror could mess things up (if they don't plea to save the humiliation of a trial) but that just means another trial. Who cares? Let 'em go through the system like that if they want. It's not like you're going to get jury nullification.

Seriously, you guys are sounding a little crazy.

Besides, what about alternate jurors?

 

[Crazy]

Would anyone have ever imagined 20 years ago or even 5 years ago that there would be a day where the most positive thing that could be said about a mayor of Toronto was gratefulness that he wasn't being out of control?

Yes, lowered expectations. This reminded me of the Conservative MP who tweeted, approvingly and without irony, how "alert" Ford looked during the ice storm. As if Ford were not the mayor of a large city, but a resident in a nursing home blowing out candles on his 92nd birthday.

 

[euler]

Thank you for clarifying.

I never knew jury nullification is very much non-existent in Canada and appeals are used instead.

I don't mean "used instead"; it's just that nullification works in America because of double jeopardy as CGPGrey says. You can't be tried for the same crime twice and the prosecution can't appeal an acquittal (at least in a jury trial), but the defence can appeal a conviction. It's not the same in Canada since both sides can appeal, so even if you managed to get an entire jury to disagree with the law (a hilariously improbable event when talking about serious crimes) there's still very little chance you'd survive the appeal.

 

[euler]

Besides, what about alternate jurors?

I thought that was only to replace jurors who can't be present or drop out for some reason - illness, death, incarceration whatever.

Wouldn't make any sense for alternate jurors to replace someone who *is* fit and present.

 

[junior43]

I thought that was only to replace jurors who can't be present or drop out for some reason - illness, death, incarceration whatever.

Wouldn't make any sense for alternate jurors to replace someone who *is* fit and present.

Correct. Alternates are only when some needs to leave for personal reasons ( health, family emergency) or the rare occasion where they're compromised - talking to someone on defense or crown by accident,etc.

 

[euler]

Oh, and sorry to spam... But not everyone has the right to a jury trial anyway. What kind of crimes can we actually pin on Ford after-the-fact? If he's caught up in some really big stuff that they can prove, sure. But if he's not looking at more than 5 years, there wouldn't be a jury involved. And I *really* think they'd want to avoid the publicity of a drawn out jury trial anyway

 

[TorontoDoh]

Would you even be able to find a jury that wouldn't be prejudiced?

 

[junior43]

Oh, and sorry to spam... But not everyone has the right to a jury trial anyway. What kind of crimes can we actually pin on Ford after-the-fact? If he's caught up in some really big stuff that they can prove, sure. But if he's not looking at more than 5 years, there wouldn't be a jury involved. And I *really* think they'd want to avoid the publicity of a drawn out jury trial anyway

Well I've been involved in two court cases where the sentence was less then 5 years in both, and both were jury's. Don't really know if it's the defendants choice, or determined by the crime.

 

[Cooper]

Well I've been involved in two court cases where the sentence was less then 5 years in both, and both were jury's. Don't really know if it's the defendants choice, or determined by the crime.

I used to cover courts back in the day. IIRC, trials were conducted by a judge alone in cases that proceeded by summary conviction. That is, lesser offences with a maximum sentence of two years or less. Juries became an option in cases that proceeded by indictment, where crimes were more serious and carried sentences of more than two years. The defendant under indictment could chose to have his/her trial heard by a jury or judge alone.

 

[euler]

Well I've been involved in two court cases where the sentence was less then 5 years in both, and both were jury's. Don't really know if it's the defendants choice, or determined by the crime.

The sentence was less than 5 years but the *maximum possible* sentence was greater than 5, which is the difference.

For example realistically Lisi isn't going to get more than 5 years for extortion but it carries a maximum life sentence, firearm or not, so he could face a jury.

Now that's just what you are entitled to by right, if you are facing a maximum of more than 5 years, I'm not sure if a jury trial could be granted in other circumstances.

edit: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-15.html section 11f

 

[newearthling]

I had a dream from an afternoon nap that Ford got into a car accident. I was down at city hall doing a sit in shift, and there was a buzz amongst the reporters. Norm Kelly came out to the elevator and gave a presser, saying Ford had crashed, and they were awaiting details. Everyone was shocked.

Do you think I need to take a break from this stuff? lol ...Since it is infiltrating my dreams?
Or could it have been one of those 'pre-cognitive' things, where I was picking up on 'something' is going to happen 'sometime soon'?

 

[soimelk]

CBC News was covering the meeting in Ottawa today and what a contrast between the attitudes of the mayors. The mayors of Montreal and Quebec City want absolutely nothing to do with Ford and don't want to see him or talk to him. Meanwhile Hazel McCallion tells reporters Ford wasn't a distraction and made a contribution (re: social housing) and the mayor of Calgary said he wasn't a distraction at all. Ford certainly has his enablers in fellow municipal politicians. Most politicians need to grow a spine and do away with this nonchalant Canadian-style niceness when it comes to Ford.

As for his pull with the federal government it's scary to think about but being buddy-buddy with Jim Flaherty gives him a bigger voice in Ottawa than any other mayor or even any Premier.

I think it's telling that Quebec Mayors' would want nothing to do with him. With the pall that has been cast over Quebec municipal politics from the revelations of the Charbonneau Commission, I'd can see why someone like the newly minted Mayor of Montreal wouldn't want to be seen with Ford. There's enough speculation and rumour to suggest Ford's in bed with organized crime, and I think many politicians, journalists and citizens outside of Quebec have yet to grasp the full weight of this possibility.