Rob Ford's Toronto

[paraone]

say his salary is $65,000 minus taxes and deductions that is paycheque of about $1700 every two weeks, about $3400 a month and you all think that is grossly inflated? To live in this city with 4 kids? what world are you guys living in? That is not a huge salary by any stretch, that is barely livable in this city. Some people just like to complain about anyone they see as "lazy" what is the difference between this guy sitting in a booth or a receptionist sitting at a desk?

Anyone who says that this is a huge salary is either too young to know better or has an entry level position or hasn't worked in the real world. I would argue that most execs making $200,000+ to delegate are "grossly" over paid... Good for this guy, he doesn't make the rules, he just uses the rules to make a better life for himself and his family. If you don't like it, then go apply for a job as a ticket collector.

 

[Dilla]

^ who says he lives in the city?

It is impossible for every worker to get an above inflation raise every year. So the current set up for public sector workers is not something everyone can achieve. It is, in the long run, unsustainable. And I don't want his job, it shouldn't exist in the first place.

 

[paraone]

whether he lives in Toronto or Mississauga is arbitrary, as is whether his job should exist in the first place.
The idea that he is somehow beneath everyone else and should make shit money is ludicrous. What is a "decent" wage? if you think his wage is unsustainable, then almost everyone is the service industry is "unsustainable". What bothers me about society is that we've all been brainwashed into thinking that a salary of $65,000 is obscene, while a CEO makes about 500x that, thats obscene, I'm by no means a communist, but we've all been duped into thinking that we should be happy with our 3 nuts a year while less then 5% of all workers get the whole f*cking tree.

Good for him for trying to make a "good" living.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Interesting. I applied to five boards and got two interviews. I wonder if I showed up 5 times in this doc, which would skew the percentages? (white, male, under 30)

Good question. I wouldn't think so, but I'm not sure -- did you get take part in the survey that asked for demographic information?

 

[Eug]

whether he lives in Toronto or Mississauga is arbitrary, as is whether his job should exist in the first place.
The idea that he is somehow beneath everyone else and should make shit money is ludicrous. What is a "decent" wage? if you think his wage is unsustainable, then almost everyone is the service industry is "unsustainable". What bothers me about society is that we've all been brainwashed into thinking that a salary of $65,000 is obscene, while a CEO makes about 500x that, thats obscene, I'm by no means a communist, but we've all been duped into thinking that we should be happy with our 3 nuts a year while less then 5% of all workers get the whole f*cking tree.

Good for him for trying to make a "good" living.

That's a pretty bogus argument, considering I would expect very few here think that an annual $32.5 million salary is appropriate for anyone, CEO or not.

 

[GraphicMatt]

And, seriously, this "ticket takers make too much money!" debate is beyond boring. There's no way for any government to just arbitrarily slash wages. If you want to have a proactive conversation, let's talk about why our governments and TTC management has been so incredibly slow to roll out an electronic fare system.

 

[Eug]

There's no way for any government to just arbitrarily slash wages.

Agreed, but the left leaning governments have kowtowed to the unions for a very long time. Therein lies the problem, and hence the rise of Ford. If things had been kept in check financially, I suspect Ford would never have been elected.

If you want to have a proactive conversation, let's talk about why our governments and TTC management has been so incredibly slow to roll out an electronic fare system.

Agreed on that too.

 

[paraone]

ok how about 400x the average salary? 300x? 200x? where does it get less obscene? One thing nobody is taking into consideration is how long has he worked for the TTC? if he started about 10 years ago, getting a 1.5 - 2% increase every year, bringing his salary upto where it is now, how is that obscene?

 

[Eug]

ok how about 400x the average salary? 300x? 200x? where does it get less obscene? One thing nobody is taking into consideration is how long has he worked for the TTC? if he started about 10 years ago, getting a 1.5 - 2% increase every year, bringing his salary upto where it is now, how is that obscene?

With a 1.5% COL pay raise every year x 10 years, that's a 16% increase.

So, if he was getting an already generous $40000 ten years ago, today s/he be making $46422.

 

[paraone]

you really think $40,000 is generous? I'd hate to know what you do for a living I made more than that fresh out of school and I am by no means rich or a part of the "higher class"

 

[Eug]

you really think $40,000 is generous? I'd hate to know what you do for a living I made more than that fresh out of school and I am by no means rich or a part of the "higher class"

For that job? Most definitely generous. Remember, $40000 a year is more than $20 an hour, and that would have been a decade ago at the turn of the century.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Agreed, but the left leaning governments have kowtowed to the unions for a very long time. Therein lies the problem, and hence the rise of Ford. If things had been kept in check financially, I suspect Ford would never have been elected.

But is this really true or do you just perceive it to be the case? Conservative Mel Lastman gave the unions a "Jobs for Life" clause in their contracts, and bent over backwards to avoid strikes or work stoppages. David Miller went to war with his supposed union allies to wring concessions from CUPE in their new contract. Super conservative Rob Ford guaranteed the TTC union significant arbitrated wage increases for years to come with his essential service designation, and awarded the Toronto Police Service their sweetest contract in recent memory.

I don't see any evidence that right-wing governments are more effective at limiting unions and keeping public sector wages in check than left-wing governments. The tough talk we get from conservative candidates in campaigns appears to be just that: talk.

 

[paraone]

exactly a crappy job nobody thanks you for, that everyone take for granted and dishes you shit ever single day... that why I also think garbage collectors should make a very good wage, you couldn't pay me enough to do that job. Now if we were talking about a job with big perks then I would agree with a lower wage, but that job will suck the life out of you and I have no problem with this guy making a "decent" wage. You want to talk about obscene? how about douggie dipshit spending $25,000 on a video for something that was never publicly approved.... now that is obscene

 

[CanadianNational]

I think opinion is being shaped that if you're "left" in this city, you're pro-union, and that if you're "right", you're against them.
I think this is a false setup. There are plenty of people on the left who aren't exactly a fan of the unions, either. There are plenty of different kinds of leftist political thought to work with, and unions aren't a common factor in them. Not Unions in a lot of their current forms, anyway.

I'd like to see a more intelligent public dialogue about Unions - their nature and their internal workings.

We get the insulting right-wing equation a lot that Unions = goons/mobs = manipulative crony leftism = stagnation. This is obviously over-the-top. There's the accusation that unions are not democratic with their members. There's the charge that they thwart initiative amongst their employees and stifle ambition and innovation.

Are Unions democratic, and how? Are they flexible and adaptative regarding innovation and workplace changes? Are ambitious and hard-working people allowed to rise on merit? Are they open to reform? Do they 'spoil' people through a sense of entitlement?

Certainly any of these charges could be laid at the feet of the right, especially the authoritarian/corporatist right - which, although it besmirches, manipulates and controls with ease, gets away with it more easily because it owns the means to propagandize itself - and turn attention away from it's horrible mistakes.

I personally hate working for Unions, and dislike them by nature. But I think they are an ongoing necessity. One problem is that they are seen as monolithically untouchable - a stance fomented by the right and the left. I think this is a bad position to be in, because people dig their heels in ,and things stagnate.

Instead of trying to 'break' unions or 'get rid of them' - maybe a public forum educating people about them might be a good idea - along with a public forum and political inquiry about reforming them - where they have become ossified and recalcitrant (looking at you, TTC.)
If people felt that Unions were adaptive, democratic organizations looking out for their best interests (and the public's) and not bloated, unanswering, innovation-stifling status-quo preserving blocs...well, that might help a lot.

It would also be good to show how "business" is not the innovative, free-market, merit-rewarding reality we're constantly propagandized to accept. Look at the damage the Ford(s) have wanted to wreak on Toronto in the name of "business". Numbers (profit) without context. It's damage on a scale no Union or 'lefties' could muster.

 

[Eug]

I think unions are sometimes necessary. I also think some unions do spoil people through a sense of entitlement.

If you've ever been on the hiring side you'd know how tough it is to fire problem employees if they're part of an large and aggressive union. We have people shuttled from dept. to dept. because they have seniority and can't be fired, but nobody wants them because they are dead weight. Similarly, it's sometimes difficult to hire specific individuals because they don't have enough seniority in the system.

OTOH, without a union some companies are more than willing to take advantage of its employees, which is why in some instances unions are necessary.