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Rob Ford's Toronto

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Admiral Beez said:
My point was that Thatcher was looking a likely defeat in the 1982/3 election and subsequent ouster by internal party rivals, when Galtieri stole the union jack... A good Pink Floyd reference there.
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I still don't really see the semblance- war generates much stronger emotions, and when you win, you extend the victory to the political party in charge (the war is really their baby). Here, the ice storm isn't really as dramatic outside of inconvenience and economic disaster for some, and Ford really hasn't done much to show that he cares at the moment. As such, I don't believe that Ford will be able to ride a wave of sympathy from this into the coming election.

Regardless, Merry Christmas to you all!
 
TheKingEast said:
What are you saying exactly? Did Ford ask for aid and we just haven't seen it yet? Or did he just not ask for aid because it wasn't necessary since in his own words things aren't at that stage to label this "catastrophe" an emergency?

The city and province are working together. However, the city did not ask for help initially because they thought it was not necessary. You're trying to tell me extra resources were not necessary. How in the world can you say that? Have you even experienced this? Have you driven around the hardest hit communities?

I'm not even a Ford "hater". I just think he's handled this poorly.
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Why do you insist on portraying me as someone who either a) Doesn't understand the severity of this crisis or b) Thinks "more resources wouldn't help". Let me answer both for you. I get it... this is BAD for a lot of people. It SUCKS. Not ONCE have I ever said that more resources shouldn't be maximized.

However, neither of those things are what we originally started debating.

This started because people were screaming about how awful and stupid Ford was for not declaring a SOE. If that's your premise then you have to be able to explain either:

a) Exactly what declaring an SOE would add to the response
OR
b) What exactly is being impeded by NOT declaring an SOE

Nobody seems to be able to do that. On Monday during the day the media was starting to nibble around the edges of that story as people were asking questions about why it hadn't been done. What a great anti-Ford story THAT would be! However, there was a lot of confusion about what exactly an SOE would mean and how it would affect the response to the crisis. By the end of the day numerous media sources had all more or less come to the same conclusion - That declaring an SOE wouldn't really change anything on the ground. It's purpose was more legal and financial then anything to do with what resources were committed. Statements from various people close to the issue seem to confirm this. The province and the city were already working together and fully engaged in responding to the crisis. SOE has NOTHING to to do with the allocation of "more resources" to the problem.

I'm not saying Ford didn't manage this poorly. He DEFINITELY said some absolutely stupid, ridiculous things. However I get the impression that he's been totally irrelevant in regards to anything involving the province anyway. Wynne has made it clear the past few months that she considers Kelly the de-facto mayor of Toronto so it's likely the two of them have been managing and coordinating the province's response from the beginning. SOE or no SOE. If the two of them felt an SOE would have helped they completely had the power to do so... and didn't.

Again - I'm not saying Ford's done a great job. I'm saying this premise of "Ford didn't declare an SOE so now people are freezing and it's his fault" is a bit disingenuous.
 
mrtinfoilsocket said:
Why do you insist on portraying me as someone who either a) Doesn't understand the severity of this crisis or b) Thinks "more resources wouldn't help". Let me answer both for you. I get it... this is BAD for a lot of people. It SUCKS. Not ONCE have I ever said that more resources shouldn't be maximized.

However, neither of those things are what we originally started debating.

This started because people were screaming about how awful and stupid Ford was for not declaring a SOE. If that's your premise then you have to be able to explain either:

a) Exactly what declaring an SOE would add to the response
OR
b) What exactly is being impeded by NOT declaring an SOE

Nobody seems to be able to do that. On Monday during the day the media was starting to nibble around the edges of that story as people were asking questions about why it hadn't been done. What a great anti-Ford story THAT would be! However, there was a lot of confusion about what exactly an SOE would mean and how it would affect the response to the crisis. By the end of the day numerous media sources had all more or less come to the same conclusion - That declaring an SOE wouldn't really change anything on the ground. It's purpose was more legal and financial then anything to do with what resources were committed. Statements from various people close to the issue seem to confirm this. The province and the city were already working together and fully engaged in responding to the crisis. SOE has NOTHING to to do with the allocation of "more resources" to the problem.

I'm not saying Ford didn't manage this poorly. He DEFINITELY said some absolutely stupid, ridiculous things. However I get the impression that he's been totally irrelevant in regards to anything involving the province anyway. Wynne has made it clear the past few months that she considers Kelly the de-facto mayor of Toronto so it's likely the two of them have been managing and coordinating the province's response from the beginning. SOE or no SOE. If the two of them felt an SOE would have helped they completely had the power to do so... and didn't.

Again - I'm not saying Ford's done a great job. I'm saying this premise of "Ford didn't declare an SOE so now people are freezing and it's his fault" is a bit disingenuous.
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Norm Kelly said in an interview on Sunday that Ford had the right/responsibility to declare the SOE. Once declared, then the logistics would shift to NK's office.
We are lucky that city council had the foresight to strip Ford of his powers.
We are lucky that Wynne and Kelly were already ignoring Ford and coordinating things. But Kelly was a bit over whelmed and perhaps not the most competent.
However, if we had had an astute mayor with experience and compassion, he/she would have recognized the need for all hands on deck early on. Help from surrounding areas would have been sought earlier.
NK and DMW seemed like they were bumbling a bit. RF seemed like a complete and utter waste of space.
Josh Matlow came out looking good to me. He was calling for a SOE, and perhaps it wasn't needed. But it would not have hurt. And he at least showed that he cared. Even the fake twitter Mayor Frod cared.
It seems like Ford doesn't have the capacity (emotional or intellectual) to care for this city that he represents.
 
TheKingEast said:
I never said that.
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Fair enough - I was using hyperbole for sure.

The crux of the argument originally however was "Ford should have called an SOE and because he didn't (and won't) it's now hampering (hampered) the response to the crisis somehow"

If you also claim you didn't say that then fair enough again. I don't really care honestly. Others here HAVE been saying that and that's the point I've been arguing against and trying to show the opposite side of.
 
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Rofl declaring a SOE during the 3 busiest shopping days of the year would of crippled the local economy.

Ford and nearly every other non partisan emergency official said it was unnecessary.

But dont let facts and educated opinions stop you from the witch hunt.
 
jusbokeh said:
Rofl declaring a SOE during the 3 busiest shopping days of the year would of crippled the local economy.
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I'm actually not sure that is true (unless you believe Ford's incorrect interpretation of what SOE actually means)

jusbokeh said:
Ford and nearly every other non partisan emergency official said it was unnecessary.
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This I agree with.

All of this is academic at this point really. Ultimately most of us here are on the same side - few of us support Mayor Ford generally so the issue is kind of moot.

Anyway have a Merry Christmas everyone.
 
mrtinfoilsocket said:
I'm actually not sure that is true (unless you believe Ford's incorrect interpretation of what SOE actually means)



This I agree with.

All of this is academic at this point really. Ultimately most of us here are on the same side - few of us support Mayor Ford generally so the issue is kind of moot.

Anyway have a Merry Christmas everyone.
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SOE shuts down all malls,venues and events and an almost curfew like situation occurs where only emergency personal will be able yo travel freely through the city.
Ttc will be shutdown and go and via will not stop within the city.
It is in effect a shutdown of pedestrian non emergency traffic within the city limits.

Imagine what that would do to business who make it or break it during this one week alone.
 
jusbokeh said:
SOE shuts down all malls,venues and events and an almost curfew like situation occurs where only emergency personal will be able yo travel freely through the city.
Ttc will be shutdown and go and via will not stop within the city.
It is in effect a shutdown of pedestrian non emergency traffic within the city limits.

Imagine what that would do to business who make it or break it during this one week alone.
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No it doesn't. All of that was debunked on Monday after Rob said it.
 
Admiral Beez said:
My point was that Thatcher was looking a likely defeat in the 1982/3 election and subsequent ouster by internal party rivals, when Galtieri stole the union jack... A good Pink Floyd reference there.
Click to expand...

To nitpick, The Final Cut isn't really a Pink Floyd album, it was more like a Roger Waters solo album with Gilmour and Mason as backup artists.

Happy Christmas!
 
jusbokeh said:
That's an outline of the various subgroups who will take over. For example it list transportation management which is toronto police and ttc who have their own reponse under SOE which include total shutdown and emergency only traffic.
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The plan lists several different types of emergencies. Perhaps you are thinking of one type, but not the natural disaster SOE?
 
jusbokeh said:
That's an outline of the various subgroups who will take over. For example it list transportation management which is toronto police and ttc who have their own reponse under SOE which include total shutdown and emergency only traffic.
Click to expand...

Someone in the media talked to Brad Ross from the TTC who said that was untrue.
 
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