News   Jul 12, 2024
 1.7K     0 
News   Jul 12, 2024
 1.3K     1 
News   Jul 12, 2024
 468     0 

Rob Ford's Toronto

Status
Not open for further replies.
Reduced spending (lower taxes)
Increased programs and services
Higher reserve funds
Lower debt
100 kms of bike paths
New subways running by 2015
No VRT
No LTT
Better roads/parking


How Rob Ford didn't manage to get 100% of the vote is beyond my ability to comprehend. Do you people have something against utopia or something?

Simple. He would have done all this and more except he was stymied by the media which kept attacking his family and by a city council which is full of commies. That's why it's so important to support Rob and Doug in 2015, not just for the mayor's job but also to elect their slate of councillors. It writes itself.
 
Simple. He would have done all this and more except he was stymied by the media which kept attacking his family and by a city council which is full of commies. That's why it's so important to support Rob and Doug in 2015, not just for the mayor's job but also to elect their slate of councillors. It writes itself.

Is this a joke?
 
And yet it's been explained to you many times, that it isn't, with examples.

That you continue to make such bizarre claims, either proves that you have no capacity to actually comprehend what is being said here, or you are simply trolling.

Actually, besides two recent posters over the past day, nothing has been explained to me in regards to the gross operating budget. On the contrary, it has continuously been explained to me that the "gross operating budget" has been explained to me...but it hasn't, or at least nothing that conflicts with what I've been saying. What exactly am I missing here?

The gross operating budget not growing as quickly doesn't really mean much in an of itself. If the government was to cut $200 million in funding to the city, the gross operating budget goes down by $200 million without any action whatsoever by the city.

What you should really look at is the net operating budget, which has grown at pretty much the same rate as it did under Miller, aside from Ford's first year where he implemented a tax freeze...courtesy of Miller's surplus.

I understand this. And please, if anything I say here is wrong, correct me, as I want to lay rest to this "gross operating budget" stuff.

The gross operating budget represents the total cost or total spending, whereas the net operating budget represents what the city funds directly. The gross operating budget has both federal/provincial funding, user fees and other revenue.

So, in essence, if the net operating budget stays the same, that means the city is paying about the same. However, if the net operating budget stays the same while the gross operating budget stagnates, that means that the city is paying the same, but is either receiving less funding, user fees or other revenue streams at the same time.

Please, if anything I said here is wrong, pile on, everybody.


To keep property taxes incredibly low, it would mean they were already incredibly low to begin with. I guess Miller wasn't that bad...

I said property tax increases were being kept incredibly low.

Do you know what a punitive measure is? Do you know what an externality is? Do you know who picked up the bill to clean-up the excess plastic bags all over our city?

Yes, I know what those are, and they're completely irrelevant. City council introduced the bag fee to reduce bag consumption over environmental concerns, not because they were paying too much to clean up littered bags.

Regardless, I would have been fine with a tax. What I'm not fine with is being mandated by the government to pay money directly into business coffers. If I'm going to pay a "tax," it better well go into the government.

Let me re-state exactly what Ford said. Ford said there would be 100km of new well-lit bike trails/lanes built before 2015.

So far in his term the city has built 2.5km of new bicycle lanes, and removed 2.5km from Jarvis.

By 2015 there will be an extra ~3.5km built along a route where there are already bicycle lanes today. Waterfront Toronto will add an extra Miller-legacy 2.5km, too (only 1km of which lacked bicycle lanes before).

Do you have a source for this? The article I linked, albeit old, showed that city hall had a plan for the installation of 70km of bike lanes.

And it's not just things that haven't materialized. As I demonstrated a few posts ago, Ford told blatant lies to mine votes. He lied about indisputable facts at least 8 times in one speech. There wasn't one bit of truth in those lies.

Maybe we have a different definition of what a "lie" is. In that transit speech you posted, Ford made a lot of claims ("raising 1 billion from the private sector", "having subways completed by the Pan Am games") which we know never materialized. If he knew they never would, then yes, they were lies. However, we have no indication that he knew they wouldn't materialize. As Ford has apparently met with the private sector to discuss transit funding and has been fighting with Stintz and council over subways and transit, most of his claims seem to be unfulfilled or maybe even unrealistic rather than lies.
 
The private sector claim was unrealistic. Just about everyone back then saw that. If you're knowingly promising unrealistic things, you're a liar. Or perhaps misleading if you want to be nice about it.

Both are totally unacceptable for a politician.

And the claim that the subway would be open by the PanAm games was a straight up lie. Anybody who knows anything about subways knows that they can take 10 years to build, even for relatively small and simple projects like the Spadina subway extension. Ford knew that his promise of building the Sheppard line in 4 years was 99% impossible. He was lying to us.
 
Last edited:
Actually, besides two recent posters over the past day, nothing has been explained to me in regards to the gross operating budget. On the contrary, it has continuously been explained to me that the "gross operating budget" has been explained to me...but it hasn't, or at least nothing that conflicts with what I've been saying. What exactly am I missing here?



I understand this. And please, if anything I say here is wrong, correct me, as I want to lay rest to this "gross operating budget" stuff.

The gross operating budget represents the total cost or total spending, whereas the net operating budget represents what the city funds directly. The gross operating budget has both federal/provincial funding, user fees and other revenue.

So, in essence, if the net operating budget stays the same, that means the city is paying about the same. However, if the net operating budget stays the same while the gross operating budget stagnates, that means that the city is paying the same, but is either receiving less funding, user fees or other revenue streams at the same time.

Please, if anything I said here is wrong, pile on, everybody.

That's a reasonably good way to explain it, but this website does a better job (with pictures!):

http://metronews.ca/voices/ford-for-toronto/519262/debunking-ford-nations-favourite-budget-chart/

Gross operating budget is misleading because it includes sources of revenue the municipal government has little to no control over, and it also obfuscates the issue because the numbers are 3X bigger.

You can see the Miller budgets averaged a 3.1% property tax increase. For the Ford budgets they have been about a point and a half less (again, ignoring the first year freeze which was completely paid for by Miller's surplus). So all the blustering by Ford has saved the average house-owning tax payer about $45 per year, compounded (non-adjusted for inflation)
 
Last edited:
[video=youtube;xkQ3IS6ea7w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkQ3IS6ea7w[/video]

There is no way at all he actually believed that. He would have had to be so mind-blowingly ignorant and incompetent to believe that was even remotely possible based on his city hall experience. I knew 19-year old kids who pointed out the impossibility of that promise back then.



Regarding bike trails:

Miller-era bike trails along hydro corridors and such were already well under construction when Rob Ford took over. I am personally involved in some of those projects. Ford and his staff have only been involved in any capacity with the ones I listed, and have been more of an obstacle for the rest.

Then again, he did want to take credit for building Kennedy station, so maybe his strategy was the same for bike trails?

Regarding the bag fee:

No one mandated you to put money into business coffers, it was not a tax, it was not a punitive measure, and it successfully addressed a market failure using standard economic principles. The cost for the government to collect a tax so insignificant as the plastic bag fee would have led to a net revenue loss.
 
There is no way at all he actually believed that. He would have had to be so mind-blowingly ignorant and incompetent to believe that was even remotely possible based on his city hall experience. I knew 19-year old kids who pointed out the impossibility of that promise back then.using standard economic principles. The cost for the government to collect a tax so insignificant as the plastic bag fee would have led to a net revenue loss.

19 year olds? I've seen 14 year olds call this guy out on his bs. The fact that kids so young are more politically engaged than so many adults in this city and have a better grasp of the facts than our mayor is saddening. But it does give me hope for the future.

Anyways, I wonder what "professional people" told Ford he could have this line done in 4 years.
 
That's a reasonably good way to explain it, but this website does a better job (with pictures!):

http://metronews.ca/voices/ford-for-toronto/519262/debunking-ford-nations-favourite-budget-chart/

Gross operating budget is misleading because it includes sources of revenue the municipal government has little to no control over, and it also obfuscates the issue because the numbers are 3X bigger.

Thanks for clarifying this, bobbob911.

I have read that Matt Elliot article before, but I guess I'm just kind of confused as to why the gross operating budget is considered irrelevant or misleading in contrast to the net operating budget. They are measures of separate things. I realize that the gross operating budget does contain revenue sources which the city has no control over, but if the gross operating budget stagnates significantly while the net operating budget increases as usual, wouldn't that mean that the city's spending is being kept at a steady rate despite a decrease in other revenue streams, or am I missing something here?

You can see the Miller budgets averaged a 3.1% property tax increase. For the Ford budgets they have been about a point and a half less (again, ignoring the first year freeze which was completely paid for by Miller's surplus). So all the blustering by Ford has saved the average house-owning tax payer about $45 per year, compounded (non-adjusted for inflation)

Fair enough.

Regarding bike trails:

Miller-era bike trails along hydro corridors and such were already well under construction when Rob Ford took over. I am personally involved in some of those projects. Ford and his staff have only been involved in any capacity with the ones I listed, and have been more of an obstacle for the rest.

Do you have a source for the amount of bike lanes being installed? The previous article I linked mentioned that Ford promised 100km of bike lanes under his mayoralty and that 30km were already under construction from Miller's term with Ford and city hall having a plan for the remaining 70km. You suggested Ford is implementing under 10km of bike lanes, so I'm wondering what the disconnect here is.

No one mandated you to put money into business coffers, it was not a tax, it was not a punitive measure, and it successfully addressed a market failure using standard economic principles. The cost for the government to collect a tax so insignificant as the plastic bag fee would have led to a net revenue loss.

What market failure did it address? It was almost solely designed as a punitive measure to discourage bag use. I agree it wasn't a tax, which is whats mind boggling about it...the government was mandating that businesses charge customers a for-profit fee for their product.
 
On another forum (not Toronto-related), I managed to convince many people that Rob Ford would be better served as a "politician" on Comedy (the television channel) than as a politician in real life. They all believe that Rob Ford is the funniest mayor in the world due to his Narm factor.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for clarifying this, bobbob911.

I have read that Matt Elliot article before, but I guess I'm just kind of confused as to why the gross operating budget is considered irrelevant or misleading in contrast to the net operating budget. They are measures of separate things. I realize that the gross operating budget does contain revenue sources which the city has no control over, but if the gross operating budget stagnates significantly while the net operating budget increases as usual, wouldn't that mean that the city's spending is being kept at a steady rate despite a decrease in other revenue streams, or am I missing something here?

It's not an irrelevant statistic in general - it's irrelevant as an indicator of the job Rob Ford has been doing. It says nothing about what savings he has or hasn't accomplished.
 
It's not an irrelevant statistic in general - it's irrelevant as an indicator of the job Rob Ford has been doing. It says nothing about what savings he has or hasn't accomplished.

True, but that could be said of any general statistic or trend. Definitely the context, variables and individual factors playing into the gross operating budget have to be examined, but for the gross operating budget to stagnate without any notable increase in the net operating budget would mean that the rate of overall spending has been slowed. Essentially, the city is paying the same amount, but its taking up a bigger part of the pie (EDIT: by this, I mean, city spending constitutes more of the gross operating budget than before). I suppose the gross operating budget alone doesn't say much, but when contrasted with the net operating budget, it does seem to say something about Ford's mayoralty.

Of course, there are probably a lot of variables and reasons, and maybe Ford isn't responsible for all or even many of them, but it does seem to be a pretty significant change that has occurred under Ford's mayoralty.
 
Do you have a source for the amount of bike lanes being installed? The previous article I linked mentioned that Ford promised 100km of bike lanes under his mayoralty and that 30km were already under construction from Miller's term with Ford and city hall having a plan for the remaining 70km. You suggested Ford is implementing under 10km of bike lanes, so I'm wondering what the disconnect here is.

What market failure did it address? It was almost solely designed as a punitive measure to discourage bag use. I agree it wasn't a tax, which is whats mind boggling about it...the government was mandating that businesses charge customers a for-profit fee for their product.

Can we give Ford credit for the purchase of the new streetcars, too?

I'll stop feeding you, now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top