TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Well out of all the major party.
The Rhinoceros party wins the title of most misleading. I voted for them thinking that they'd elect a Rhino leader.
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Rob Ford's Toronto
- Thread starter MetroMan
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Well out of all the major party.
The Rhinoceros party wins the title of most misleading. I voted for them thinking that they'd elect a Rhino leader.
LowPolygon
Senior Member
Cheaper than Rent!
LowPolygon
Senior Member
oh man, do we have do this?
here, yet again is the list of things that are the direct result of a 'socialist' approach to governing society.
we shouldn't have to keep bringing up this uncomfortable reality because you guys should really know better by now.
it's American (designed to counter mouth-breathing Teahadist arguments), so 'use your imagination' and add your own Canadian examples
75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/29/1078852/-75-Ways-Socialism-Has-Improved-America
guitarchitect
Active Member
It's so far from "tomato, tomah-to" that it's not even funny. If you think it's merely a case of different words describing the same thing, then you're clearly ignorant of reality and you didn't even bother to read what I wrote (I promise, I'm not lying with what I said - they really are completely different.) Against my better judgement, I'm going to try to clear it up a bit for you.
Unions, Welfare, Childcare (ever heard about Quebec's childcare system?), public schools, Employment Insurance, and our Healthcare System are all products of Social Democratic ideals and principles. In other words - many of the universally accessible things that make our country the envy of many others around the world. It's about the creation of a society which is democratic. I'd wager that we wouldn't even have things like Public Libraries (obviously the Carnegie Libraries in the US are a different beast) and Community Centers without Social Democracy and/or its principles. Which isn't to say that capitalism is evil - just that Social Democracies involve a thread of "just because you aren't wealthy it doesn't mean you shouldn't have a basic set of things that are accessible to you, or some kind of fairness that you are treated with". How many of us would have gotten to where we are today without the fact that our laws mandate a minimum wage? Do you think minimum wage was the idea of hard-line capitalists? Isn't it proof that a Socially Democratic principle can actually make things better for everyone without "destroying the economy"? I couldn't have gone to university and become an Architect if I didn't earn what I did as a result of minimum wage requirements and OSAP... I'm skeptical that OSAP would exist without those same Social Democratic principles, but I don't actually know the history of OSAP and which government created it.
How/why do you think societies (ooooh, common origin with Social, we better be careful) broke away from Monarchies? Why do you think we moved to capitalism and Meritocracies/Democracies in the first place? Maybe because there was a senseless divide between the born-lucky and the born-unlucky, and that there should be some level of Social Democracy that would allow for private ownership and freedom? Are you familiar with Jean-Jacques Rousseau's The Social Contract and the influence it had?
You can go on beating your chest that the word "Social" is evil, but you end up looking like a fool. Take the time to consider the nuance that is present in the simple inversion of the terms "Social Democracy" and "Democratic Socialism" - they really are worlds apart as political ideas, and just because one starts "Social" it doesn't mean it is socialism. Don't be stupid. Take this as an opportunity to educate yourself about what our various political parties are really about, so that when you get involved in these kinds of conversations you don't resort to simplistic generalizations.
guitarchitect
Active Member
That's a brilliant list - but I would contend that they're products of Social Democracy, not Socialism per se. True socialism doesn't like capitalism, and would advocate, for example, for the creation of only those goods that will be given directly to people to use. There's no room for profit or private enterprise - everything is "common", there's no money, etc etc.
Social Democracy, which advocates for a mixed economy (OMG did you guys know John Maynard Keynes was a Social Democrat?!) is the reason that you can tax people for many of the things on that list. It allows for private enterprise and capitalism while ensuring there's enough government involvement to create those institutions for all to benefit from.
jje1000
Senior Member
IMO it's not a left-right issue nowadays, it's more that populism has taken over as an acceptable method of governance over methods of the past. When faced with problems, populists usually choose the popular/most politically pleasant choice over the right one, be it from creating unsustainable tax cuts to giving in to union demands. It's all the same.
My current wish is to be rid of the Fords and their kind of populism. It's not enough to have Rob turfed from office, it's only when the Fords have been extingushed from political sphere and stripped of their immediate influence in politics is the city truly rid of this American sort of politicking.
My current wish is to be rid of the Fords and their kind of populism. It's not enough to have Rob turfed from office, it's only when the Fords have been extingushed from political sphere and stripped of their immediate influence in politics is the city truly rid of this American sort of politicking.
adma
Superstar
adma
Superstar
But re this current Project Traveller business, I've been reflecting on how topsy-turvy everything is because...in a normal world, isn't tough-on-crime a cornerstone of right-populism? And aren't these kinds of boldly staged gestures a political wet dream for the populist right-of-centre? Getting rid of the thugs and hoodlums?
In a normal world, under a normal circumstance, Rob Ford would be authoritatively front-and-centre when it comes to Project Traveller: "we got'em" a la Dubyah, right? Instead, he's seemed distracted, exasperated--anything but "authoritative". What should be boon for him has been a total bust, instead--due in no small part to his being "front-and-centre" of this whole affair in all the wrong ways, of course. He's flopped at his own right-populist game.
And he's not the only one thrown off-course; it's interesting that today's Toronto Sun, which likewise *should* be all over Project Traveller (even if they haven't been as central to the Ford-crack reportage as the G&M or Star), instead had some boilerplace related to Our Unelected Premier on its front page...
In a normal world, under a normal circumstance, Rob Ford would be authoritatively front-and-centre when it comes to Project Traveller: "we got'em" a la Dubyah, right? Instead, he's seemed distracted, exasperated--anything but "authoritative". What should be boon for him has been a total bust, instead--due in no small part to his being "front-and-centre" of this whole affair in all the wrong ways, of course. He's flopped at his own right-populist game.
And he's not the only one thrown off-course; it's interesting that today's Toronto Sun, which likewise *should* be all over Project Traveller (even if they haven't been as central to the Ford-crack reportage as the G&M or Star), instead had some boilerplace related to Our Unelected Premier on its front page...
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
I'm confused, I thought this was a rental building. Is it a mix of rentals and condos?
Peepers
Banned
The six buildings that make up "Kingsview Park" are all condominiums. In fact some of the first condo's to be built in Toronto by Tridel (known as "DelZotto" at the time). I read somewhere that some of the units in these buildings go for as little as $57,000!
someMidTowner
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Scary to think that these homes sell for less than some downtown parking spaces
Peepers
Banned
UPDATE:
I notice that the CBC have deleted reference to 15 Windsor being raided and have issued this clarification:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/06/13/toronto-police-raids.html
BBM: So 15 Windsor was not raided Thursday morning but was included in court documents listing police searches. Strange.
nfitz
Superstar
I tend to lean a bit Libertarian ... but I can never understand how a Libertarian would lean to Ford or the Conservatives. Surely wanting to restrict gay marriage, immigration, access to abortion, and all these restrictions of freedoms Tories love to push is the opposite of Libertarianism.
guitarchitect
Active Member
Cheaper than Rent!
Blech, look at those maintenance fees! More than your mortgage payments! I wonder what kind of characters are on the condo board in that building...
TOvp
Active Member
There are decent, hard-working, gainfully employed condo owners in those buildings, mainly immigrants. They saved liked crazy for down payments to own their places, building equity and credit. What they escaped from in their homeland was worse than what they encounter in Kingsview Village so they are happy to buy there than to rent (for much more) elsewhere.
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