Rob Ford's Toronto

[CN Tower]

OK, I see the problem here - you don't actually understand the difference between Socialism and a Social Democracy, do you?

Buddy, I'm using your source to prove my point! Social "Democracy" in name only. Are you that naive? The NDP are a socialist lot and Chow and her late husband (RIP) were the poster couple for it. They almost destroyed Ontario in the 90's and would plunge Canada into the economic abyss is ever put in power.

 

[Tulse]

it makes sense to me that someone like John Tory would be the most popular potential candidate.

One of my main problems with Tory is that he seems like an empty suit. The few times he's actually campaigned have been huge disappointments (remember the self-inflicted wound over funding religious schools during his provincial run?). While I would strongly prefer a more progressive candidate, I'd certainly tolerate a moderate, thoughtful conservative, but I really don't know what Tory actually stands for. I think many people have latched on to Tory simply because he seems like he's not crazy, rather than anything specific about his policies.

 

[DSC]

Perhaps I misspoke. She's just a run of the mill socialist I suppose:

Eat your words guitar

North America[edit]

In Canada, the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation, the precursor to the New Democratic Party, had some significant success in provincial politics. In 1944, the Saskatchewan CCF formed the first socialist government in North America. On the federal level, the social democratic New Democratic Party now forms the Official Opposition after winning 103/308 seats[187] (up from 37) in the 2011 Canadian federal election.

Your credibility has been a bit tenuous for a while but your "reasoning" (I use the word lightly) in this case is really quite bizarre. Some unknown source states that the 1944 Saskatchewan government was 'socialist" so you make the leap that its successor party is socialist 70 years later - even if they are the definition of 'socialist' may have changed. If anything the NDP is "social democratic' and you can read their constitution at http://xfer.ndp.ca/2013/constitution/2013_CONSTITUTION_E.pdf

 

[syn]

Buddy, I'm using your source to prove my point! Social "Democracy" in name only. Are you that naive? The NDP are a socialist lot and Chow and her late husband (RIP) were the poster couple for it. They almost destroyed Ontario in the 90's and would plunge Canada into the economic abyss is ever put in power.

This post reads like a Rob Ford rant.

 

[LowPolygon]

Was a nauseatingly milquetoast analysis. I was hoping to see some background/detail on the relationship of the Fords with TPS Sup't Ron Taverner, whose name frequently comes up when "Ford" and "police" appear in the same story.

indeed.

http://www.thegridto.com/blog-post/dixon-road-post-raid-project-led-by-old-friend-of-the-fords/

 

[Tulse]

This post reads like a Rob Ford rant.

What do you expect from a Nazi fascist?

( for the sarcasm-impaired.)

 

[guitarchitect]

Buddy, I'm using your source to prove my point! Social "Democracy" in name only. Are you that naive? The NDP are a socialist lot and Chow and her late husband (RIP) were the poster couple for it. They almost destroyed Ontario in the 90's and would plunge Canada into the economic abyss is ever put in power.

Read up on Social Democracy using the link I provided. The part you pasted stated quite precisely that the NDP is a social democratic party. Ignore the part about Saskatchewan, because that's irrelevant.

Socialism is WORLDS AWAY from Social Democracy - despite the fact that they sound similar. And both are different from Democratic Socialism.

As others have said - words have meaning and it's important to know the definition and concepts before tossing about those words. I would agree 100% that Olivia Chow is a type of Social Democrat (Layton even moreso) - but that does not make her a socialist! It especially doesn't make her "left of socialism".

The tenets of Social Democracy have their foundations in Capitalism and do not reject it. From the article I linked to - "It supports a mixed economy that opposes the excesses of capitalism such as inequality, poverty, and oppression of various groups, while rejecting both a totally free market or a fully planned economy. Common social democratic policies include advocacy of universal social rights to attain universally accessible public services such as education, health care, workers' compensation, and other services including child care and care for the elderly. Social democracy is connected with the trade union labour movement and supports collective bargaining rights for workers."

 

[calimehtar]

Sure the NDP include elements of socialism in their platform. Having an NDP-ish mayor isn't going to mean instant financial catastrophe for the same reason Ford didn't quite turn Toronto into a libertarian fantasyland: the mayor is basically a figurehead.

On that count Olivia Chow would be a fine mayor, I would argue, even for right-wing surburbanites who will for the most part not vote for her. She has poise and self-respect. She is intelligent. So far there are no allegations she has smoked crack.

To be completely honest I'd be happy with literally any mayor with those attributes from any end of the political spectrum, but if she runs she's likely to win no matter who she's up against.

 

[LowPolygon]

The NDP are a socialist lot and Chow and her late husband (RIP) were the poster couple for it. They almost destroyed Ontario in the 90's and would plunge Canada into the economic abyss is ever put in power.

 

[ThinkRicky]

I'd love it if there were any actual socialists to vote for in this country, if only to drag the overall tone of political discourse away from this garbage right wing/neoliberal "consensus" that's getting everybody nowhere. I mean, look at where we are now? People ranting like madmen against social programs because they, personally, were born fortunate enough to never need to use them, and because they don't know what words mean. Yeah, I'd love it if we had some socialists kicking around, reminding us that it's not nessacary for all public policy to be designed to fellate rich people and their private empires at the expense of the people that keep this gong show running.

 

[nfitz]

In Canada, the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation, the precursor to the New Democratic Party, had some significant success in provincial politics. In 1944, the Saskatchewan CCF formed the first socialist government in North America. On the federal level, the social democratic New Democratic Party now forms the Official Opposition after winning 103/308 seats[187] (up from 37) in the 2011 Canadian federal election.

I don't get it. Why are you quoting basic history text material than everyone already knows and learned in school?

I'm sure your aware the NDP dropped socialism as a principle ... in reality years ago, and officially on paper now too.

Chow was involved in this. Wouldn't that make her right of socialist not left of socialist?

 

[JasonParis]

Buddy, I'm using your source to prove my point! Social "Democracy" in name only. Are you that naive? The NDP are a socialist lot and Chow and her late husband (RIP) were the poster couple for it. They almost destroyed Ontario in the 90's and would plunge Canada into the economic abyss is ever put in power.

Not that you are making much sense at all, but let's ask you this... Did "Red Ken" Livingstone plunge London into the financial abyss between 2000 and 2008? Or did London's economy grow more so than it had in very few periods prior?

 

[Hipster Duck]

Polls from a few months ago suggested that a sizeable number of people who would otherwise vote for Ford actually would switch and vote for Chow, should she run. I found it bizarre, but that's what they indicated.

I can't say I wouldn't vote for Chow, but I don't particularly want to vote for Chow. I'll plug my nose vote for the person who's most likely to beat Ford. The madness must end.

That's bizarre, for sure. I'd like to see how that poll was phrased to respondents.

I have to imagine the predicament I'd be in if I was a centre-right voter in 2014 between Chow and Ford. I guess the best thought experiment I can conjure up would be if I, as a centre left voter, were confronted between a despicable hard left idiot and an ideologically-driven but competent hard right opponent. Something like Hugo Chavez vs. Ron Paul. Or, more precisely, a neutered Hugo Chavez (since Rob Ford is pretty much a lone wolf on council these days) vs. an empowered Ron Paul. Crap, I think I'd just rather stay home.

According to the 2006 Canadian Census, people claiming Chinese ethnicity make up 11.4% of Toronto's population (behind only South Asians at 12%). The 2011 figures haven't been released yet, but it is most likely above 12% now. Considering that most of this group lives in the suburbs and was probably more likely to support Ford in the last election, it would be a big deal if Chow was able to attract a majority of Chinese-Canadian votes. Certainly being able to communicate directly through the local Chinese press would be a huge advantage over her opponents.

12% is not a small percentage, I'll grant you that, but don't forget that Chinese people don't traditionally vote in blocs. Some of this has to do with the fact that we, more than any other minority group, probably represent the full socio-economic spectrum, from bag ladies to billionaires, and we're not united by a common cultural background other than a notion of "Chineseness"; for example, we don't predominantly follow one religious denomination, our ancestors didn't all arrive in Canada at the same time under the same circumstances, and we don't all speak the same language other than English. We probably have one of the highest rates of ethnic intermarriage for a group that is so large. We can't be used to predict elections.

 

[the lemur]

So because the Saskatchewan CCF was "socialist" seventy years ago, Olivia Chow is a socialist now?

Mm-hmm. And because today's Tories contain elements of the old Reform Party, and Preston Manning's dad led the Social Credit Party of Alberta, the CPC's economic policies are those of the original Douglas Social Credit philosophy in the UK of the 1920s and '30s. Tenuous enough?

 

[CN Tower]

Your credibility has been a bit tenuous for a while but your "reasoning" (I use the word lightly) in this case is really quite bizarre. Some unknown source states that the 1944 Saskatchewan government was 'socialist" so you make the leap that its successor party is socialist 70 years later - even if they are the definition of 'socialist' may have changed. If anything the NDP is "social democratic' and you can read their constitution at http://xfer.ndp.ca/2013/constitution/2013_CONSTITUTION_E.pdf

The unknown source is Wikipedia my friend. And the person who initially referenced it in an vain attempt to discredit my comments was your comrade mr guitarchitect.

Anyone who was in the business community in Ontario who was subjected to the provincial NDP government and their policies would have a very tough time dispelling the notion that their ideology was anything but socialism.

Enough of history though. Let's all pray that Ms. Chow chooses to stay out of municipal politics in Toronto. We need someone like mayor Bloomberg.