Roads: Six Points Interchange Reconfiguration (City of Toronto, UC)

[steveintoronto]

Now how should this look at an intersection with two 6 lane roads at all approaches? Keep in mind this is a major intersection that will have a lot of trucks turning, etc. etc.

The same. With an added lane. You didn't access the links, did you?

 

[steveintoronto]

^It looks sensible in theory, but I wonder how many cyclists will actually make the jog, versus just continuing in a straight line into the intersection.....and how many motorists will heed the recessed stopping point, versus pulling right up to the point of auto intersection. Needs a lot of education.

- Paul

A lot won't, this is Toronto, but then the question is: "Do we make this unsafe for everyone because many won't observe the rules?"

As to roundabouts, and even six lane multi-spoked intersections, nations elsewhere have addressed that, I'll detail later.

Meantime, for the four lane roads shown for Six Points: (turn lanes don't make a four lane road a six lane one)

Now how should this look at an intersection with two 6 lane roads at all approaches? Keep in mind this is a major intersection that will have a lot of trucks turning, etc. etc.

Pardon the translation, it's from K/W...

It might be a lot harder for Torontonians...

Addendum: Trying to find these "six lane roads"...
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/To...23555502ab4c477!8m2!3d43.653226!4d-79.3831843

But if some must insist on "six lanes" then:

Movement within a roundabout in right-hand traffic; note the anticlockwisecirculation

Movement within a roundabout in left-hand traffic; note the clockwise circulation

[...]
Many traffic circles have been converted to modern roundabouts, including the former Kingston traffic circle in New York and several in New Jersey.[26][27] Others have been converted to signalised intersections, such as the Drum Hill Rotary in Chelmsford, Massachusetts, which is now six lanes wide and controlled by four separate intersections.[28][...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout

 

[darth_freeman]

See the intersection of Kipling and Dundas in the attached.

If you can show me a bike friendly 6 lane road intersection design I would be delighted to see it.

Even Hwy 7 in Markham only has bike lanes East-West (nothing North-South).

 

[crs1026]

^I have driven enough roundabouts over the pond to be in awe of their potential.... when properly signed and with lane and stop markings well maintained. Ontario is a fail on both counts.

The bigger thing is, we do little education and even less coaching, er, enforcement.

The changes in rules of the road in Ontario brought about by adding bike lanes and roundabouts over the last fifteen years IMHO justify requiring every licensed Ontario driver to rewrite their driver’s exam.

I have married friends who both drive transit and it’s a wonderful dinnertime troll to query them on things like whether/how to signal in roundabouts. They are the most trained/ skilled/ experienced drivers I know....and they don’t agree on anything!

I don’t expect any pols to have the courage to propose the retest thing, but it would be wonderful to rumour it just to drive the point home. Toronto drivers, and cyclists, and pedestrians are collectively their own worst enemies.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

See the intersection of Kipling and Dundas in the attached.

If you can show me a bike friendly 6 lane road intersection design I would be delighted to see it.

Even Hwy 7 in Markham only has bike lanes East-West (nothing North-South).

Hey, I'm already on record a few posts back as staying as far away from these kinds of roads as possible. That doesn't mean everyone else on foot or pedal who does dare to tread there should be put in jeopardy.

'Pedal' the confabulation as whatever you like, but "pedestrian and bike friendly" it ain't. In fact, I don't see much overall improvement for vehicles either, albeit I haven't driven in this jurisdiction since I was a professional driver here some forty years ago.

When I saw the 'solution' to this historical anomaly, I wondered "WTF?" That's it? Seriously...?

 

[steveintoronto]

^I have driven enough roundabouts over the pond to be in awe of their potential.... when properly signed and with lane and stop markings well maintained. Ontario is a fail on both counts.

The bigger thing is, we do little education and even less coaching, er, enforcement.

The changes in rules of the road in Ontario brought about by adding bike lanes and roundabouts over the last fifteen years IMHO justify requiring every licensed Ontario driver to rewrite their driver’s exam.

I have married friends who both drive transit and it’s a wonderful dinnertime troll to query them on things like whether/how to signal in roundabouts. They are the most trained/ skilled/ experienced drivers I know....and they don’t agree on anything!

I don’t expect any pols to have the courage to propose the retest thing, but it would be wonderful to rumour it just to drive the point home. Toronto drivers, and cyclists, and pedestrians are collectively their own worst enemies.

- Paul

In all deference to your observations, the Brits especially have 'lost it' as to navigating roundabouts, the absolute requirement for the choreograph being signalling. In work sojourns I've had over the years in Blighty, with residences just under a year each (to maintain my status in Canada), I used to be able to cycle through roundabouts with ease. It's always a very unfair balance of risks, a one ton or more vehicle vs. yourself, but thirty years ago, it worked, and worked quite well.

There's no freakin' way I'd do it today though. Last sojourn back I walked around or across roundabouts, the Brits don't know how to dance anymore. That may be regional in effect.

42°37'20.8"N 71°21'58.7"W · 42.622444, -71.366306

www.google.com

Which is why I linked the K/W example. In a nutshell, their stats show no discernible reduction in accidents at the intersections where they're now installed. What they did/do show is a *marked* reduction in the nature of those accidents. No more T-Bones or Head-ons. And no fatalities.

Again, for cyclists and pedestrians, for whom this whole exercise was claimed to be aimed at, under or overpasses are a pre-requisite unless signals are placed at the 'necks' of the radii where they meet the roundabout.

What the UK has been doing now for generations on the motorways is what's linked prior:

Others have been converted to signalised intersections, such as the Drum Hill Rotary in Chelmsford, Massachusetts, which is now six lanes wide and controlled by four separate intersections.[28]

Click on the '28' to see how some of the 'abroad' examples are being transplanted. That's right on the Expressway! This is a very common method now used in the UK, and intuitive to use even for the idiots who can't negotiate the older in-city ones.

- Google

Note: The arterial roads intersecting can safely host bike lanes a la the Dutch Method at the signalled junctions. ("Dutch" although now used in many other nations, the US included). Needless to say, as with any jurisdiction I'm familiar with, cyclists are banned from the freeways, expressways, controlled access etc hwys.

 

[steveintoronto]

Digging back to see where the promise and the result diverged on this. There are so many gloriously wonderful walk in the park promises made that I realized I couldn't quote any of them, they were under the 'Rapture'...but it is fair to quote the City's own website:

Six Points Interchange Reconfiguration
Print
The City of Toronto is reconstructing the Six Points intersection to support the development of Etobicoke Centre as a vibrant mixed-use transit-oriented community. The design features:

• a new road network and at-grade intersection at Dundas, Bloor and Kipling
• complete Streets, with improved pedestrian facilities, wide boulevards, trees, street furniture, improved access to Kipling Subway Station, cycling facilities and separated bike lanes installed on all major streets
• new land available for potential uses such as parkettes, public art installations, development and other amenities
• a district energy plan

• https://www.toronto.ca/community-pe...ions/infrastructure-projects/etobicokecentre/

Fast forward, and UT itself reviews the cooking: (In all fairness to @darth_freeman reference is made to "six lane Dundas" and perhaps others in the design stage. This is a recurring criticism of many reviews.)

[...]
While they were happy that the interchange was coming down in favour of an at-grade street network, the Panel was not overly pleased with the plans in place, or lack thereof, for the Six Points neighbourhood. They took issue with the design of the new Dundas Street, stating that the street was too wide. Though Dundas now incorporates wide sidewalks, elevated bike lanes, street trees, and a landscaped median, Panelists criticized the excessive width of the six-lane road, claiming that despite these urban elements, the new Dundas was designed as a highway conducive to speedy traffic that would create a hostile environment for pedestrians and cyclists. They acknowledged, however, that since the project was nearly complete, there was not much that could be done about this.
[...]

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2019/02/six-points-redesign-lacking-vision-design-review-panel

It's a very PC way of saying it's a disaster in terms of what the City was selling it as.

I'll repeat my initial statement on the relative safety of cycling there:

I'm probably one of the most cycle-avid on this board, but looking at that pic, I'd avoid it with great prejudice. Anyone fooled by this:

as a 'green box of safety' is a naive sucker who's going to get hit, albeit there'll be motorists lined up behind wanting to turn right honking their horns and trying to push you off the road before they actually impact.

And designers thinking this is 'bike friendly' are not only fools, they're a danger to the general public. I agree with prior comments on the need for "square corners"...or if not, a right turn 'slip lane' that allows a safety island for pedestrians and cyclists alike to pause until they have the light in their favour to cross the rest of the intersection. And that island, btw, must have a protective post or more to stop the inevitable out of control vehicle slamming into those waiting on it.

What's shown above rings every sixth sense I have that's kept me alive cycling here and abroad for over fifty years. You don't survive this long by 'standing on green asphalt' as a mark to get run over.

And I stand by everything I stated. For every reason @darth_freeman states, the City has botched this. And they stick a freakin' green box in the middle of
drivers who don't give a fug and think this is somehow impressive?

I have a name for cyclists who follow the City's suggestion: Token Hostages. You get executed no matter what deal is made.

 

[salsa]

If this was K-W, a round-about would have been considered with pedestrian/cyclist underpass. A round-about would have accommodated all 'six-points' with no traffic lights at all...but alas. It's Toronto...nuff said.

Pardon the translation, it's from K/W...

It might be a lot harder for Torontonians...

If recent bike lane installations along the LRT is any indication, the only inspiration Toronto should take from Kitchener-Waterloo is how not to design bike lanes. Otherwise we're in trouble.


Waterloo bike lane causes cyclists concern

‘Murder lane’: Cyclists call foul on bike lane

From CTV Kitchener’s Heather Senoran: Cyclists say the lane on a busy stretch of Northfield Drive has traffic too close to comfort.

kitchener.ctvnews.ca

“In particular, this location has not been identified as a problem. It’s everyone’s responsibility to share the road."

Bob Henderson - manager of transportation engineering

 

[steveintoronto]

If recent bike lane installations along the LRT is any indication, the only inspiration Toronto should take from Kitchener-Waterloo is how not to design bike lanes. Otherwise we're in trouble.

It's an absolute disaster in the making, something that would make the Dutch retch, let alone any aware cyclist anywhere...but what has that to do with the use of roundabouts? As for K/W, when I cycle through there, I don't. I hop on one of the Xi buses and go through it. (200Xi most often). K/W is cycling hell along with Cambridge.

Btw: Not only is that bike lane setting the cyclist up as target practice and I've seen this scenario at almost all major roads over highways, Cambridge to the south of K/W being one of the worst anywhere in Ontario (#124 @ 401), but that green surface is extremely slippery. How do I know? Just looking at it. It has next to no grit if any in it. Even knobbies have next to no traction on that kind of paint.

Since the point is being missed on roundabouts:

A study of 30 roundabouts in Ontario found that pedestrian collision rates are approximately 40 to 60 per cent less than pedestrian collision rates at comparable traffic signals with similar traffic and pedestrian volumes.
Roundabouts - Region of Waterloo

https://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/en/living-here/roundabouts.aspx

And have a gander!

[/quote]
- link above

Six lane arterials, and successive roundabouts. Looks like the Northeast corner of Cambridge. I walked my bike through there a couple of years back cycling through to Guelph from Port Dover. I got off the Xpress bus from Ainslee in the south of Cam to get to #124 @ 401 and walk across the bridge to sanity in Hespeler, but got off at the wrong mall. They all look the same. (Google satellite fails to confirm it being Cambridge, but endless suburbia does all look the same. Take Six Points as an example...)

Again, I can't overemphasize, pedestrian/cycle paths should be in tunnel or bridge under/over roundabouts of size.

And featured at...ta da...the K/W Record:

bicycledutch.wordpress.com
In a Dutch roundabout, cyclists ride in their own cycle path that's separate from cars and pedestrians. The roundabout is designed "to provide cyclists a safe space to navigate the roundabout and create an area where motorists should expect to see cyclists," Cronkite said.Jan 6, 2019
'Dutch roundabout' among $1M in cycling improvements proposed in ...
https://www.therecord.com/.../9112017--dutch-roundabout-among-1m-in-cycling-impr...

Videos

5:06
5 minutes of traffic on a Dutch roundabout with bi-directional cycling ...
Frank van Caspel
YouTube - Oct 19, 2017

4:25
Safest Roundabout Design for cyclists. The best of Dutch infrastructure ...
David Hembrow
YouTube - May 23, 2014

8:16
Roundabout with priority for cyclists in the Netherlands
BicycleDutch
YouTube - May 10, 2011

- : Google

‘Dutch roundabout’ among $1M in cycling improvements proposed in Kitchener budget
New intersection design would be one of the first in Canada
NEWS Jan 06, 2019 by catherine thompson Waterloo Region Record


KITCHENER — The city of Kitchener is considering installing a new type of roundabout that gives more protection to cyclists.
The so-called "Dutch roundabout" is part of a proposed $1 million investment in improving the city's cycling infrastructure.
The roundabout at Huron and Strasburg roads would cost $200,000 and be one of the first of its kind in Canada, said Barry Cronkite, Kitchener's director of transportation services.

In a Dutch roundabout, cyclists ride in their own cycle path that's separate from cars and pedestrians.
The roundabout is designed "to provide cyclists a safe space to navigate the roundabout and create an area where motorists should expect to see cyclists," Cronkite said.
"This is a fairly minor, yet very important, change to a roundabout that's pre-existing and shouldn't require much (if any) adjustment by users to figure out how to navigate the new design. But again, it highlights the city's desire to provide safe facilities for all road users.
Emily Slofstra of CycleWR welcomes the new Dutch design, saying it will make it easier for cyclists to navigate that roundabout.
But she cautioned, "it could still be hazardous to cyclists if they don't take things like speed limits into consideration. If drivers are able to go into the roundabout at 60 (km/h) it's not going to be safe. It's much easier to yield if you're going 30 than if you're going 60."
The roundabout is part of the capital budget councillors will be considering at a Jan. 14 meeting.
According to a report on the project, "it will be one of the first of its kind in Canada and will set the stage to determine if the design is feasible at other locations throughout Waterloo Region." [...]

https://www.therecord.com/news-stor...ng-improvements-proposed-in-kitchener-budget/

 

[salsa]

but what has that to do with the use of roundabouts?

Since the point is being missed on roundabouts:

I thought we were discussing the safety of cyclists/pedestrians while also accommodating vehicle movements. Do any of these KW roundabouts include proper cycling infrastructure?

 

[steveintoronto]

I thought we were discussing the safety of cyclists/pedestrians while also accommodating vehicle movements. Do any of these KW roundabouts include proper cycling infrastructure?

Did you even read what I posted? No. They're fug-ups, like most of Ontario, but at least they're on the right track. Where's Toronto's?

‘Dutch roundabout’ among $1M in cycling improvements proposed in Kitchener budget
New intersection design would be one of the first in Canada
NEWS Jan 06, 2019 by catherine thompson Waterloo Region Record


KITCHENER — The city of Kitchener is considering installing a new type of roundabout that gives more protection to cyclists.
The so-called "Dutch roundabout" is part of a proposed $1 million investment in improving the city's cycling infrastructure.
The roundabout at Huron and Strasburg roads would cost $200,000 and be one of the first of its kind in Canada, said Barry Cronkite, Kitchener's director of transportation services.

In a Dutch roundabout, cyclists ride in their own cycle path that's separate from cars and pedestrians.
The roundabout is designed "to provide cyclists a safe space to navigate the roundabout and create an area where motorists should expect to see cyclists," Cronkite said.
"This is a fairly minor, yet very important, change to a roundabout that's pre-existing and shouldn't require much (if any) adjustment by users to figure out how to navigate the new design. But again, it highlights the city's desire to provide safe facilities for all road users.
Emily Slofstra of CycleWR welcomes the new Dutch design, saying it will make it easier for cyclists to navigate that roundabout.
But she cautioned, "it could still be hazardous to cyclists if they don't take things like speed limits into consideration. If drivers are able to go into the roundabout at 60 (km/h) it's not going to be safe. It's much easier to yield if you're going 30 than if you're going 60."
The roundabout is part of the capital budget councillors will be considering at a Jan. 14 meeting.
According to a report on the project, "it will be one of the first of its kind in Canada and will set the stage to determine if the design is feasible at other locations throughout Waterloo Region." [...]
Click to expand...

https://www.therecord.com/news-stor...ng-improvements-proposed-in-kitchener-budget/

 

[KevinT]

And have a gander!

View attachment 182554

Six lane arterials, and successive roundabouts. Looks like the Northeast corner of Cambridge.

That's the new Ottawa / Homer Watson roundabout viewed from the east (looking west), with the new Ottawa / Alpine roundabout in the background. There was a lot of discussion about the right turn slip roads in the Waterloo Region Connected forums during its construction, most of it negative, but driving through this roundabout now on a semi-regular basis I've actually found it to work pretty well.

When heading from the westbound expressway to the Alpine Boston Pizza for the monthly scuba social I actually do a left 270 through the Ottawa / Homer Watson roundabout rather than use the slip road, but that's because it puts me in the correct lane to make the left 90 through the Ottawa / Alpine roundabout rather than having to weave across three lanes in a short amount of space. Sometimes that gets me through faster than the slip road but mostly it doesn't.

 

[steveintoronto]

There was a lot of discussion about the right turn slip roads in the Waterloo Region Connected forums during its construction, most of it negative, but driving through this roundabout now on a semi-regular basis I've actually found it to work pretty well.

Thanks for the details on that. As stated, I checked Google Satellite, and determined it wasn't Cambridge, but the lay of the land is very similar.

Your comment "I've actually found it to work pretty well" is telling. Evidently it took time, much like @crs1026 had suggested for Torontonians if they had one of that size, something I agree with. In the case of Six Points, the freeway/motorway version I linked might be much preferable, not least because it's a hybrid that would allow the (effectively) Dundas highway (it used to be Hwy #5!) to run through unfettered, with the other four points converging on a ring above (or below) it, with traffic lights to gate the flow onto the roundabout ring.

The 'bridge too far' with the example we're discussing might be the six lanes. I wonder if for Toronto (Six Points being a prime case) dual four lane roundabouts might be the solution? I know they're going to have problems with the layout as now presented with multiple stoplights and a lack of sense of direction.

Here's some press on the Ottawa/Watson (I'll refer to as O/W) roundabout. It had a rough start, as did others in K/W. ( I see some design short-comings even before reading or viewing some of these links)

Note the date!

Dozens of crashes could impact future roundabout plans
NEWS Nov 24, 2011 Kitchener Post

Kitchener Post staff

Since the roundabout at Homer Watson Boulevard and Block Line Road opened on Aug. 14, it has seen three times as many crashes as the notorious Homer Watson and Ottawa Street intersection just up the road.

Over the past five years, Homer Watson and Ottawa has seen more collisions than any other intersection in the region.
But according to figures provided by the transportation department at the Region of Waterloo, there were 36 collisions at the roundabout between Aug. 14 and Nov. 21, compared to 12 at Homer Watson and Ottawa. At the traffic lights at Homer Watson and Bleams Road, just south of the roundabout, there were two crashes.
Roundabouts are touted for reducing the severity of collisions between vehicles, compared to the kinds of crashes that can happen at traffic lights.
But despite the reputation for fender benders and sideswipes, there have been five collisions with injuries at the roundabout, while there were no injuries at the other two intersections during the same time period.
“I didn’t know about the personal injury numbers, and if the other (intersection at Homer Watson and Ottawa) didn’t have any, that’s certainly significant,” said regional councillor Tom Galloway. [...]

https://www.kitchenerpost.ca/news-s...crashes-could-impact-future-roundabout-plans/

Drivers still confused by Homer Watson roundabout, review shows
NEWS May 28, 2015 by Paige Desmond Waterloo Region Record

KITCHENER — The problem with the roundabout at Homer Watson Boulevard and Block Line Road in Kitchener may be the people driving in it, according to a recent review.
A professional engineering consultant was brought in to analyze human factors that could be contributing to the higher-than-expected collisions reported there.
Despite the installation of countermeasures to try to reduce collisions, as of September 2014 there had been 81 collisions when staff predicted about 28.

The consultant concluded people just aren't yielding right-of-way.
"The design is appropriate, there's nothing physically in the roundabout that's causing the problem," said Thomas Schmidt, commissioner of transportation and environmental services.
The issue appears to be that the drivers entering the roundabout don't realize vehicles in the inside lane may exit in front of them and that they must yield to those vehicles as well as vehicles in the outside line.
The consultant said drivers in North America aren't used to roundabouts and generally pay attention to just the drivers in the curb lane they plan to enter.
"There's an onus on the individual drivers and pedestrians to educate themselves," Coun. Karl Kiefer said.
To counteract the problem, the region will spend $40,000 to send about 180,000 brochures on proper roundabout use to all the households in the region, and another $40,000 for more warning signs at the roundabout and an educational video.
"All that doesn't mean a thing if the people that are using it or are trying to use it don't pay attention to what they're supposed to be paying attention to and how it's supposed to work," Kiefer said.

Since the roundabout was constructed in 2011, more than a dozen countermeasures have been attempted to try and get through to drivers, including:

• yield signs and several variations to them;

• reducing the posted speed limit from 70 km/h to 50 km/h on the Homer Watson approaches;


• driver education programs;

• triangular pavement markings near yield lines;

• reconfiguring the southbound approach lane configuration from three through lanes to two through lanes, and dedicating the curb lane as right turn only.

Yet collisions are increasing in frequency, staff say, and continue to go well above what's expected, according to the region's collision prediction model.

But there aren't any plans to tear out the roundabout and install traffic signals.

"If we put a traffic signal there, we will continue to have collisions there," Schmidt said. "Some of those collisions will be major, someone will get hurt.

"With a roundabout we are seeing a dramatic reduction in injury accidents."

Regional review shows drivers are stopping before they enter the roundabout and most collisions are fender-benders at low speeds.

About 10 per cent of collisions result in injuries at the Homer Watson roundabout, staff say.

A 2014 Waterloo Region Record analysis of collisions between 2009 and 2013 found that traffic signals see more deaths. One person has died at a regional roundabout, and that was a single-vehicle collision involving a motorist who lost control.

For up to two years, staff will monitor whether the new signs that warn drivers that vehicles in the inside lane may exit and the education campaign have an impact, and report back to council.

https://www.therecord.com/news-stor...used-by-homer-watson-roundabout-review-shows/

Editing that article was difficult, since it contains so many of the concerns with roundabouts in Canada, not just this specific one.

Here's the "Connected" forum that Kevin mentioned:

Homer Watson and Ottawa Three Lane Roundabouts - Waterlooer - 01-21-2015

Homer Watson and Ottawa Three Lane Roundabout
Region of Waterloo - Council Approval
[...]

http://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/printthread.php?tid=339

Again, I have to make very clear that it's considered necessary practice in nations that use roundabouts profusely to have pedestrian and cyclist traffic routed separately, either through tunnel or overhead bridge.

What I'm seeing at Six Points isn't friendly to anyone save the developers, but even there, the 'solution' is very short-sighted. I see a Gordonian Knot prone to many vehicle accidents, and unfriendly to pedestrians and cyclists alike.

The following is also a 'Gordonian Knot', but friendlier to vehicular flow and able to be 'programmed' since it has traffic lights that can adjust to need: (Note being the UK, it is contra-directional)

[...]
The third roundabout in the improvement scheme at Bassaleg was completed in November 2017.

But Costain have warned the full benefits of the improvements will not be realised until all three roundabouts are complete and operating with the support of new intelligent traffic light system.

Pont Ebbw roundabout - New lane plans:

A spokesman for Costain said: “The additional lanes on the roundabout will assist the distribution of traffic to the other limbs of the roundabout and in particular to the Government Offices that support the Intellectual Property Office (IPO) and the Office of National Statistics (ONS) and the Wafer Fab components plant.

“In addition, the traffic light system on all three roundabouts can interact to ensure an optimum level of traffic throughput.

“In advance of the changes, Costain, the Principal Contractor for the improvement scheme, will be meeting with key stakeholders and promoting the new arrangements at Tredegar Park and Pont Ebbw.”

Economy and Transport Secretary Ken Skates added: ”The two milestones are an important development to support the final stages of construction and the introduction of the new traffic light system.

“The new lane arrangements will help traffic flow and drivers should approach these new lane arrangements with care”.
[...]

 

[KevinT]

What I'm seeing at Six Points isn't friendly to anyone save the developers, but even there, the 'solution' is very short-sighted. I see a Gordonian Knot prone to many vehicle accidents, and unfriendly to pedestrians and cyclists alike.

Another discussion topic on WRC has been the scramble: A special traffic light phase that's just for pedestrians (and cyclists?) which allows them to cross in all directions, including diagonally. The other phases are for cars only with all pedestrians halted. That could probably work well at Six Points, but would any Canadian city be brave enough to try it? Sure wish Waterloo would use it at King / University and Phillip / University, but we Canucks have such an aversion to Not Invented Here...

 

[Allandale25]