Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[DanielMar_Toronto]

An election pledge to buy the 407 and remove the tolls would buy all the suburban Toronto

In that case, would it be made "free" or remain a toll given the law about all new freeways not being tolled aside from this one? I'd imagine it would still attract more people if it was publicly owned but still towed (granted, would the province still charge a premium? Is Durham portion the 407 considered a rip off?).

 

[Northern Light]

An election pledge to buy the 407 and remove the tolls would buy all the suburban Toronto votes

It might well; though it doesn't strike me as a good use of scarce funds right now.

Don't get me wrong, I think it could be a supportable decision, depending on the terms.

But unless we're going to pay for it by further raising tolls or a dedicated new tax stream........that would be billions off the table for other necessary projects.

 

[lowtrain]

The busiest sections are already very busy at peak. And if they turn that into gridlock now, capacity reduces. Which will surely make the 401 worse, not better.

I don't understand how putting more cars on the 407 would make 401 worse. Sections might be busy, but this is what the traffic map looks like at 5pm on a Thursday - not a single red section on the 407.

 

[rdaner]

It might well; though it doesn't strike me as a good use of scarce funds right now.

Don't get me wrong, I think it could be a supportable decision, depending on the terms.

But unless we're going to pay for it by further raising tolls or a dedicated new tax stream........that would be billions off the table for other necessary projects.

I am assuming that somebody is seeing this expenditure as delaying the need for 413 thus saving funds. There is also the amount of money saved by not having to service development that would result from 413 thus additional savings.

 

[afransen]

I don't understand how putting more cars on the 407 would make 401 worse. Sections might be busy, but this is what the traffic map looks like at 5pm on a Thursday - not a single red section on the 407.
View attachment 601020

Highway capacity actually declines when they are congested. ie, less vehicles are moved.

Buy the 407, make the 407 free to use, turn the 407 into a parking lot to mirror the 401, 407 may actually move fewer vehicles than it does currently--->407 users that pay extra to take a more circuitous route may be inclined to just use the 401 if it is more direct and no more congested. The people I know who carpool to afford the 407 tolls will likely not bother with carpooling if they are going to sit in traffic for free anyway.

I am baffled that people look at the traffic map above and think "we should make the 407 more like the 401" and not the reverse.

 

[11th]

Highway capacity actually declines when they are congested. ie, less vehicles are moved.

Buy the 407, make the 407 free to use, turn the 407 into a parking lot to mirror the 401, 407 may actually move fewer vehicles than it does currently--->407 users that pay extra to take a more circuitous route may be inclined to just use the 401 if it is more direct and no more congested. The people I know who carpool to afford the 407 tolls will likely not bother with carpooling if they are going to sit in traffic for free anyway.

I am baffled that people look at the traffic map above and think "we should make the 407 more like the 401" and not the reverse.

I am curious as to how many of the current 401 users should really be 407's, and vice versa. I think 407 being tolled has skewed the distribution and may have caused unnecessary traffic on roads leading north from the 401.

 

[afransen]

I am curious as to how many of the current 401 users should really be 407's, and vice versa. I think 407 being tolled has skewed the distribution and may have caused unnecessary traffic on roads leading north from the 401.

Maybe we should put tolls on the 401 to encourage those folks to use the 407 instead.

 

[nfitz]

I don't understand how putting more cars on the 407 would make 401 worse.

Because if the 407 turns into 401-like gridlock, then it carries less cars than it does now!

The best chance to reduce congestion is to restrict 401 access so that it keeps moving at 100 km/hr. It would then be carrying more people than it does now.

And why destroy the only useful highway that we have in the city?

 

[Dan416]

Premier Ford announces speed limit to further increase on 400-series highways

Ford says the speed limit will be increased to 110 kilometres an hour on all 400 series highways "where it is safe to do so."

toronto.citynews.ca

I'm surprised no one posted this. I wonder what highways they'll consider "safe" to raise the limit to 110 that haven't already been?

 

[innsertnamehere]

I don't understand how putting more cars on the 407 would make 401 worse. Sections might be busy, but this is what the traffic map looks like at 5pm on a Thursday - not a single red section on the 407.
View attachment 601020

See that little bit of yellow around Dufferin?

That's volume. The 407 right now at 5pm operates basically "just above traffic". If you add any more cars it would become congested.

This means that there isn't really effectively much capacity to be squeezed out of the highway, at least at rush hours.

If we wanted to discuss lower off-peak tolls on the 407 - that's a definite option to reduce congestion outside of the traditional rush hour, but peak hour itself the 407 doesn't have much to offer in terms of traffic relief.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Premier Ford announces speed limit to further increase on 400-series highways

Ford says the speed limit will be increased to 110 kilometres an hour on all 400 series highways "where it is safe to do so."

toronto.citynews.ca

I'm surprised no one posted this. I wonder what highways they'll consider "safe" to raise the limit to 110 that haven't already been?

Lots. A lot of the 401 is still 100, the 400 north of Barrie is 100, 407 is 100, etc.

My bet is that we'll see most highways outside of a few exceptions increased - i.e. 401 through Toronto, 417 through Ottawa, etc.

 

[PL1]

Lots. A lot of the 401 is still 100, the 400 north of Barrie is 100, 407 is 100, etc.

My bet is that we'll see most highways outside of a few exceptions increased - i.e. 401 through Toronto, 417 through Ottawa, etc.

It's effectively 110+ everywhere due to enforcement.

 

[lenaitch]

Highway capacity actually declines when they are congested. ie, less vehicles are moved.

Buy the 407, make the 407 free to use, turn the 407 into a parking lot to mirror the 401, 407 may actually move fewer vehicles than it does currently--->407 users that pay extra to take a more circuitous route may be inclined to just use the 401 if it is more direct and no more congested. The people I know who carpool to afford the 407 tolls will likely not bother with carpooling if they are going to sit in traffic for free anyway.

I am baffled that people look at the traffic map above and think "we should make the 407 more like the 401" and not the reverse.

I'm not the brightest bulb on the string, and I sort of get the concept of 'induced demand', but there must be other factors at play. Population growth will obviously increase demand on everything from roads to transit to sidewalks, but four-laning Hwy 11 to North Bay, 69/400 to Sudbury or Hwy 416 haven't turned them into bumper-to-bumper.

Another dynamic involving heavy trucks in stop-and-go traffic is, in addition to simply consuming more real estate, they accelerate and decelerate (particularly accelerate) differently than smaller vehicles. Moving CMVs to Hwy 407, in the near term anyway, I think would have a significant impact on Hwy 401 movements.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I'm not the brightest bulb on the string, and I sort of get the concept of 'induced demand', but there must be other factors at play. Population growth will obviously increase demand on everything from roads to transit to sidewalks, but four-laning Hwy 11 to North Bay, 69/400 to Sudbury or Hwy 416 haven't turned them into bumper-to-bumper.

Another dynamic involving heavy trucks in stop-and-go traffic is, in addition to simply consuming more real estate, they accelerate and decelerate (particularly accelerate) differently than smaller vehicles. Moving CMVs to Hwy 407, in the near term anyway, I think would have a significant impact on Hwy 401 movements.

Induced demand is wildly misrepresented on the internet and generally very misunderstood - you have a good inkling of idea on that one. It's far from unlimited and is not anywhere close to the phenomenon it is made out to be in most places online.

afransen is right however that a congested freeway actually moves *less* cars than a highway which is just busy enough to not have traffic. The 407 is that right now at peak hour, so I'm hesitant to make any changes to it during that time.

I'd be all for reducing off-peak tolls or allowing trucks on it from 10am-3pm and 7pm-7am or something though. The 407 has a significant amount of excess capacity in the off peak hours during which much of the rest of the freeway network still experiences regular congestion which it could help with.

 

[T-Bor]

Induced demand is wildly misrepresented on the internet and generally very misunderstood - you have a good inkling of idea on that one. It's far from unlimited and is not anywhere close to the phenomenon it is made out to be in most places online.

afransen is right however that a congested freeway actually moves *less* cars than a highway which is just busy enough to not have traffic. The 407 is that right now at peak hour, so I'm hesitant to make any changes to it during that time.

I'd be all for reducing off-peak tolls or allowing trucks on it from 10am-3pm and 7pm-7am or something though. The 407 has a significant amount of excess capacity in the off peak hours during which much of the rest of the freeway network still experiences regular congestion which it could help with.

I wonder if there could still be peak tolls, but nothing off-peak. There would still be revenue, which could potentially allow the government to 'only' buy the 50.01% owned by the CPP and still have minority private ownership.

Who knows if the economics of this would even work for private investors, but could allay some of the sticker shock. Rather than a $29B highway that's always toll-free, maybe it's a $15B highway that's mostly toll free