Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Deadpool X]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1546247993086590976

We'll talk about cancelling this highway's expansion when Milton gets subway lines, all day 2 way GO service and a large bus network.

 

[Undead]

Milton, subways, huh? I daresay one of the best ways to ensure a given municipality never gets subways is by building sprawl oriented infrastructure. Note I'm not a fan of the urbanist histrionics against the 413. But all drama aside, it's still probably not the type of thing we should be building. Yes, all suburban munis need significant transit improvements.

 

[ShonTron]

Milton, subways, huh? I daresay one of the best ways to ensure a given municipality never gets subways is by building sprawl oriented infrastructure.

Vaughan might be surprised by that.

 

[Undead]

Vaughan might be surprised by that.

Politics are the darndest thing, aren't they?

 

[Haljackey]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1546247993086590976

Not taking sides here but want to state that this widening is taking place in the 401's existing right of way. No additional farm land is being eaten up by this project or similar ones taking place in Cambridge, Tilbury and elsewhere. The same cannot be said for new builds like the 413 for example.

 

[darth_freeman]

Road bad. Why don't people just take the Milton - Vaughan subway??

 

[ARG1]

Not taking sides here but want to state that this widening is taking place in the 401's existing right of way. No additional farm land is being eaten up by this project or similar ones taking place in Cambridge, Tilbury and elsewhere. The same cannot be said for new builds like the 413 for example.

But road widenings basically don't help anyone. One of the biggest contributors to traffic is things like weaving and extra lanes only make this problem worse. New highways that serve different areas and offer new routes are far more impactful at adding extra road capacity.

 

[innsertnamehere]

But road widenings basically don't help anyone. One of the biggest contributors to traffic is things like weaving and extra lanes only make this problem worse. New highways that serve different areas and offer new routes are far more impactful at adding extra road capacity.

This is absolutely not true and is a wild misconception.

There is a very clear differential between new infrastructure inducing new trips and it actively making traffic *worse*. I can guarantee you that the 401 through Milton and Mississauga will operate far, far better than it did before the widening once it was complete. It may not operate perfectly forever as growth occurs, but it's not going to be the same situation as it was before for at least a generation.

The highway widenings that seem "pointless" are the ones that add only a small amount of capacity in an area experiencing high growth. I.e. widening the Gardiner would not really improve traffic at all as it would simply convert transit trips and serves a high growth area, or the QEW widening through Halton a decade ago which increased the road capacity by only about 20% on a highway which has been experiencing extremely rapid demand growth, resulting in traffic returning to it's pre-widening state within a decade.

The 401 to Milton is effectively doubling capacity on the highway, it will be adequate outside of peak rush hour for decades to come.

 

[ARG1]

This is absolutely not true and is a wild misconception.

There is a very clear differential between new infrastructure inducing new trips and it actively making traffic *worse*. I can guarantee you that the 401 through Milton and Mississauga will operate far, far better than it did before the widening once it was complete. It may not operate perfectly forever as growth occurs, but it's not going to be the same situation as it was before for at least a generation.

The highway widenings that seem "pointless" are the ones that add only a small amount of capacity in an area experiencing high growth. I.e. widening the Gardiner would not really improve traffic at all as it would simply convert transit trips and serves a high growth area, or the QEW widening through Halton a decade ago which increased the road capacity by only about 20% on a highway which has been experiencing extremely rapid demand growth, resulting in traffic returning to it's pre-widening state within a decade.

The 401 to Milton is effectively doubling capacity on the highway, it will be adequate outside of peak rush hour for decades to come.

Ok if we're talking about extending the Express to Milton, then yes you are correct. My point was about just adding the extra lane though. Furthermore extending the express to Milton does nothing for the overcrowded Toronto and eastern Mississauga sections.

 

[gweed123]

The highway widenings that seem "pointless" are the ones that add only a small amount of capacity in an area experiencing high growth. I.e. widening the Gardiner would not really improve traffic at all as it would simply convert transit trips and serves a high growth area, or the QEW widening through Halton a decade ago which increased the road capacity by only about 20% on a highway which has been experiencing extremely rapid demand growth, resulting in traffic returning to it's pre-widening state within a decade.

The QEW through Halton did add an HOV lane though, which has been extremely useful.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The QEW through Halton did add an HOV lane though, which has been extremely useful.

Indeed it is, albeit it hasn't improved traffic much on the QEW a decade later. Particularly in rush hours it's fairly underutilized and has a minimal impact on overall throughput. It is heavily used on weekends for recreational traffic though, which I generally agree should be the focus.

Had the QEW widening featured a new GP lane as well as the HOV, traffic would be operating a lot better albeit likely still experience some level of congestion.

Halton Region in general is lucky it has the LSW line which removes a ton of demand along the corridor. Really Burlington / Oakville / Hamilton are connected to Toronto via only a 6+2 lane road and the 407, which normally would require far more capacity for that many people. Going north of Toronto to northern York Region (i.e. north of Richmond Hill) has probably a smaller population and demand level, but a lower transit modal share and sees generally similar traffic with a far higher effective capacity between the 404 / 400.

 

[darth_freeman]

Very few, if any, projects actually simply add an additional general lane to a highway. They either add HOV/managed lanes, are combined with bridge replacements, rehabilitations, or convert express/collector lanes, increase safety by extending merge/weaving distances, etc.

So many articles about why adding lanes is bad, but it's so rare that lanes are simply added for capacity only. The 401 express/collector conversion will add redundancy as well incase there is an accident on one set of lanes.

 

[Haljackey]

But road widenings basically don't help anyone. One of the biggest contributors to traffic is things like weaving and extra lanes only make this problem worse. New highways that serve different areas and offer new routes are far more impactful at adding extra road capacity.

At least this project is doing what it can to reduce weaving. Collector-express config reduces multi-lane changes, and the buffered HOV lane controls the entrance/exit points.

When complete there won't really be much 'demand to induce'. It's already there. Milton is growing like a weed and the 401 is the lifeblood of Ontario's economy. Whatever we can do to make it flow better benefits us all. This ain't just one commuter highway for suburbs/exurbs, it handles more than commuters. Just in time inventory truckers, long distance drivers, vacationers/tourists, etc all traverse this highway. While the 407 does help act as a bypass in the Toronto area, its expensive. Elsewhere in the province there really isn't a good alternate to the 401 when it is heavily congested/closed.

However I am in full agreement that we have to do more than just widen / build more highways. Getting folks on transit and WFH more will help. I'm one of the lucky ones who gets to WFH permanently now thanks to the pandemic, so that's one less road user in rush hour or one less bus rider (which takes like 4-5x as long for me to get to downtown London vs driving... and yes I live in the city )

 

[innsertnamehere]

Very few, if any, projects actually simply add an additional general lane to a highway. They either add HOV/managed lanes, are combined with bridge replacements, rehabilitations, or convert express/collector lanes, increase safety by extending merge/weaving distances, etc.

So many articles about why adding lanes is bad, but it's so rare that lanes are simply added for capacity only. The 401 express/collector conversion will add redundancy as well incase there is an accident on one set of lanes.

Ontario generally has been building HOVs with any new urban widening project - but they definitely still add GP lanes. The 427 widening north of the 409 took it from 4 to 6+2HOV for example, The 401 widening through Mississauga and milton is taking it from 6 to 8/10+2HOV, the 401 widening in Cambridge took it from 6 to 12, there are a bunch of 6-laning projects on rural parts of the 401 in various stages of construction and approval, the 417 is getting widened from 6 to 8 lanes through the eastern part of Ottawa, etc.

 

[ARG1]

Ontario generally has been building HOVs with any new urban widening project - but they definitely still add GP lanes. The 427 widening north of the 409 took it from 4 to 6+2HOV for example

6 to 8+2HOV but carry on