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Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

Transportfan said:
I heard it was more about which trans-provincial corridor (north or south) to follow. It should've been an obvious choice, especially since the northern corridor was the national route which was mostly scratch-built later.
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Perhaps but that also raises the question of what's more important, the national scale or the provincial scale? Sure Highway 17 runs from Manitoba to Quebec, but very few people live up there, meanwhile the entire population crowds around the 401 corridor. As such an argument could be made that in the context of Ontario, The southern route is far more important. There is no "obvious choice" and it entirely depends on what you think is more important.
 
Transportfan said:
The 417 didn't even exist when the TCH was built (and the exception to the 400-series numbering could have been retained later). And Ontario didn't even have a Highway 1 so there was no reason not to number it 1.
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As a side point- why does the 417 km markers go from east to west instead of west to east? This is the only hwy in Ontario I can think of that doesn't use the standard south to north and west to east numbering. If the 417 did have km markers west to east, it would probably carry on Hwy 17's numbering (Similar to how Hwy 11 takes on Hwy 400s km markers after Barrie). This would probably result in the exit numbers being in the 2000s, which would by far make it the highest exit numbers on any freeway in North America (Current first place is I-10 in Texas I think which has upper 800s). Here's what that could look like:
Untitled drawing.jpg
 
whydidimakethis said:
As a side point- why does the 417 km markers go from east to west instead of west to east? This is the only hwy in Ontario I can think of that doesn't use the standard south to north and west to east numbering. If the 417 did have km markers west to east, it would probably carry on Hwy 17's numbering (Similar to how Hwy 11 takes on Hwy 400s km markers after Barrie). This would probably result in the exit numbers being in the 2000s, which would by far make it the highest exit numbers on any freeway in North America (Current first place is I-10 in Texas I think which has upper 800s). Here's what that could look like: View attachment 325187
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I think its simply because the 417 has a hard terminus on the east side (The Quebec Border) meanwhile the western end is in flux and there are many plans to expand it. Imagine if every time the 417 was extended (which there are several extensions planned) Ontario had to renumber all of the exit numbers, which costs money and causes confusion. Its much easier to just set the terminus in the east where its physically impossible to have any extensions and start counting up from there.
 
ARG1 said:
I think its simply because the 417 has a hard terminus on the east side (The Quebec Border) meanwhile the western end is in flux and there are many plans to expand it. Imagine if every time the 417 was extended (which there are several extensions planned) Ontario had to renumber all of the exit numbers, which costs money and causes confusion. Its much easier to just set the terminus in the east where its physically impossible to have any extensions and start counting up from there.
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No, my point is it would have the same km markers continuing right from the existing hwy 17. If the 417 is extended west, it would just take over more of hwy 17's km markers as it goes
 
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whydidimakethis said:
No, my point is it would have the same km markers continuing right from the existing hwy 17. If the 417 is extended west, it would just take over more of hwy 17's km markers as it goes
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When the 417 was built, Highway 17 continued to run parallel to it, so it didn't make sense for 417 numbering to be based on on it.
 
While distance markers and interchange numbers are the public face, highway distance records have all sorts of internal engineering and traffic management purposes as well.
 
whydidimakethis said:
No, my point is it would have the same km markers continuing right from the existing hwy 17. If the 417 is extended west, it would just take over more of hwy 17's km markers as it goes
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That may not be true. Extending the 417 may include bypasses of existing sections of the 17, such as around towns. This could add or subtract the length of the highway for the entire 17-417 stretch.

I'm not sure if I can see the 417 go further than Petawawa long-term, so maybe when it gets to there they can do a mass resigning of the numbers to go E-W.

I still think for consistency's sake the entire Trans-Canada Highway should be numbered #1 for the main trunk route. Does that mean converting 417 to 1 is a downgrade? I think not... it just turns from a provincially signed road to a federal one.
 
^ I'm not sure what a "federally signed road" is, considering that all are under provincial jurisdiction. Arguing over which route is the 'trunk route in provinces that have multiple routes would require both inter and inner provincial cooperation and harken back to the reason why Ontario avoided a 'highway 1' in the first place.

The cost and disruption to both the government and the folks who's addresses would change doesn't seem worth it to me. It would be like changing Yonge St. to Main St. because some feel it is Toronto's 'main' road.

It's just a number.
 
Haljackey said:
That may not be true. Extending the 417 may include bypasses of existing sections of the 17, such as around towns. This could add or subtract the length of the highway for the entire 17-417 stretch.

I'm not sure if I can see the 417 go further than Petawawa long-term, so maybe when it gets to there they can do a mass resigning of the numbers to go E-W.

I still think for consistency's sake the entire Trans-Canada Highway should be numbered #1 for the main trunk route. Does that mean converting 417 to 1 is a downgrade? I think not... it just turns from a provincially signed road to a federal one.
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In practicality, I can’t see Highway 417 extending any further west than Pembroke/Petawawa. But that would probably see the Cobden bypass built on the east side of Muskrat Lake. Otherwise the bypasses built around Renfrew and Pembroke built during earlier TCH upgrades should be able to accommodate 4-laning as the Arnprior bypass already did.
 
ShonTron said:
In practicality, I can’t see Highway 417 extending any further west than Pembroke/Petawawa. But that would probably see the Cobden bypass built on the east side of Muskrat Lake. Otherwise the bypasses built around Renfrew and Pembroke built during earlier TCH upgrades should be able to accommodate 4-laning as the Arnprior bypass already did.
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I agree with your first statement.

I found a design of the 417 extension here:
I also found this:
https://www.ontario.ca/page/approval-highway-17-haley-station-meath-hill-environmental-assessment.

There's a good chance it goes ahead.
 
Transportfan said:
Why does being strictly a direct transcontinental route need to be the only role of the TCH? If a branch already diverges to pass through Orillia and Peterborough, then why not have another go a bit more south to serve the country's most important east-west corridor?
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TCH should strictly be transcontinental because that's it in its name and that was its purpose. Why do we want to have every major highway carry the TCH designation? It's not the end of the world if a major Southern Ontario highway is not a part of TCH. It is already so confusing with parallel routes that goes up to 3 parallel TCH routes in Ontario. The highway would lose its true relevance if we keep branching it. Imagine if there are 5 different TCH routes, who will ever say TCH? They will just say the highway number to avoid confusion. Just like we call Highway 17 by that name because there is more than one TCH in Ontario.

With too much branching, it won't remain a highway. It will become a Trans Canada Network. We are not building an Interstate like network with TCH. It's just a trunk route connecting one end of Canada to another. It is more symbolic than anything else. Even if it wasn't named TCH, people would still have driven the same route.
 
Deadpool X said:
TCH should strictly be transcontinental because that's it in its name and that was its purpose. Why do we want to have every major highway carry the TCH designation? It's not the end of the world if a major Southern Ontario highway is not a part of TCH. It is already so confusing with parallel routes that goes up to 3 parallel TCH routes in Ontario. The highway would lose its true relevance if we keep branching it. Imagine if there are 5 different TCH routes, who will ever say TCH? They will just say the highway number to avoid confusion. Just like we call Highway 17 by that name because there is more than one TCH in Ontario.

With too much branching, it won't remain a highway. It will become a Trans Canada Network. We are not building an Interstate like network with TCH. It's just a trunk route connecting one end of Canada to another. It is more symbolic than anything else. Even if it wasn't named TCH, people would still have driven the same route.
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Then why does TCH 11 or TCH 7 exist? The former is only there to designate a major marker for Northern Ontario, and the latter serves no purpose whatsoever. Clearly a "demarcation of a transcontinental route" is not its sole intended purpose.
 
Deadpool X said:
TCH should strictly be transcontinental because that's it in its name and that was its purpose. Why do we want to have every major highway carry the TCH designation? It's not the end of the world if a major Southern Ontario highway is not a part of TCH. It is already so confusing with parallel routes that goes up to 3 parallel TCH routes in Ontario. The highway would lose its true relevance if we keep branching it. Imagine if there are 5 different TCH routes, who will ever say TCH? They will just say the highway number to avoid confusion. Just like we call Highway 17 by that name because there is more than one TCH in Ontario.

With too much branching, it won't remain a highway. It will become a Trans Canada Network. We are not building an Interstate like network with TCH. It's just a trunk route connecting one end of Canada to another. It is more symbolic than anything else. Even if it wasn't named TCH, people would still have driven the same route.
Click to expand...
We could also call the network the Interprovincial Highway System akin to the Interstate Highway System in the States.
 
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