Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[11th]

When someone argues that drivers have already paid for roads through taxes, what's the counterargument in favour of road tolls?

There is no counterargument. Construction of roads and their maintenance are paid through general taxes because everyone reaps the benefit from them. Roads aren't just for commuters, they are also for moving goods.

 

[BurlOak]

There is no counterargument. Construction of roads and their maintenance are paid through general taxes because everyone reaps the benefit from them. Roads aren't just for commuters, they are also for moving goods.

Actually, I think cars subsidize the roads even more than general taxes. It is the trucks that are moving the goods that are subsided for the benefit of all.
If we wanted to be "fair", we could lower the fees charged to cars (lower gas tax, lower licensing) and drastically increase the fees charged to commercial vehicles - who would pass these costs on to consumers.

 

[lenaitch]

Actually, I think cars subsidize the roads even more than general taxes. It is the trucks that are moving the goods that are subsided for the benefit of all. If we wanted to be "fair", we could lower the fees charged to cars (lower gas tax, lower licensing) and drastically increase the fees charged to commercial vehicles - who would pass these costs on to consumers.

Of course, in the spirit of fairness, those commuters would be willing to accept lower wages because their cost of living was reduced but costs would go up for everyone who is a consumer, whether or not they drive.

It's all general revenue. Any government that tries to tell you that tax 'x' goes directly into program 'y' is fibbing.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The GTA west corridor was expected to be largely self financing via it being a toll road, similar to the 407 east.

 

[Allandale25]

Updated Northwest GTA Corridor map.

 

[ConformistsWake]

Updated Northwest GTA Corridor map.

I think this map is pretty close to what many suspected would be frozen. Crazy to see how large of any area is covered for the 401/407 interchange. Whenever this gets going again the engineers will have their work cut out in designing that.

 

[wopchop]

Well it was primarily to be a trucking route bypass of the 401/400 interchange (the most congested part of the GTA). Instead the recommendation is to add a toll free truck lane to 407ETR. Hmm, and who will cough up the money for the lost revenue to 407ETR?

That's what I don't get about this highway. They claim that it is a bypass for 401/400, but we have that bypass already - it's called the 407. And it already connects all the commercial / industrial parks of Markham, Vaughan, and Brampton to 401 in the west and east (via 412).

However, businesses and trucking companies just don't want to pay 407ETR tolls (just take the highway any day of the week and this is self evident) and might be more inclined to take cheaper government tolls. This fact makes me a little skeptical about whom was really pushing this highway and it's necessity.

There is also all the developers who look at this highway and salivate over all the opportunities it opens in North Vaughan, Bolton, Caledon, Georgetown, Orangeville, Milton, etc.

 

[Leo_Chan]

That's what I don't get about this highway. They claim that it is a bypass for 401/400, but we have that bypass already - it's called the 407. And it already connects all the commercial / industrial parks of Markham, Vaughan, and Brampton to 401 in the west and east (via 412).

However, businesses and trucking companies just don't want to pay 407ETR tolls (just take the highway any day of the week and this is self evident) and might be more inclined to take cheaper government tolls. This fact makes me a little skeptical about the whom was really pushing this highway and it's necessity.

There is also all the developers who look at this highway and salivate over all the opportunities it opens in North Vaughan, Bolton, Caledon, Georgetown, Orangeville, Milton, etc.

I wonder if they could make the tolls for trucks be inversely proportional to their weight. Assuming the truck-only lane(s) get implemented, then what if the tolls they pay depend on how much they are carrying, the heavier the truck, the less the toll.

 

[wopchop]

I wonder if they could make the tolls for trucks be inversely proportional to their weight. Assuming the truck-only lane(s) get implemented, then what if the tolls they pay depend on how much they are carrying, the heavier the truck, the less the toll.

The question really is whether a large proportion of trucking companies are willing to pay tolls at all. Logistics is an incredibly competitive business, so pricing is basically a race to the bottom. All the trucking companies paying tolls would be competing with companies utilizing free routes (i.e. 401). Is that willing segment large enough? I don't know the answer to that. But if you take a look at current trucking usage of 407 versus the 401, you can easily see that there is currently minimal demand.

Any business case needs to look at this issue. Maybe there is a case? It's possible. But from the bleachers, it seems like that demand could be more cheaply solved through a deal with 407 for truck lanes at negotiated toll rates.

 

[BurlOak]

I think this map is pretty close to what many suspected would be frozen. Crazy to see how large of any area is covered for the 401/407 interchange. Whenever this gets going again the engineers will have their work cut out in designing that.

I thought I saw a 427-401 type interchange proposed - where the north leg is shifted about a kilometer from the south leg.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Here's some new photos from the Highway 404/Highway 7 Interchange Improvements by York Region, Opening late 2018

Aerial Norman Bethune Avenue And Aristotle Avenue Construction:

Completed Realigned Ramp:

Retaining Wall Construction Aristotle Avenue:

Construction Area Map:

 

[amnesiajune]

Here's some new photos from the Highway 404/Highway 7 Interchange Improvements by York Region, Opening late 2018

Aerial Norman Bethune Avenue And Aristotle Avenue Construction:

Naming streets after Norman Bethune in the Cantonese part of Markham and Richmond Hill... Bold move

 

[Sandpit]

Naming streets after Norman Bethune in the Cantonese part of Markham and Richmond Hill... Bold move

Increasingly Mandarin-speaking these days (and I'm sure it was semi-deliberate).

 

[Neutrino]

I was initially annoyed that the city did such a half assed job plowing and salting the roads this weekend, but the mounds of snow turned into impromptu traffic calming measures and it was fun to observe.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I was initially annoyed that the city did such a half assed job plowing and salting the roads this weekend, but the mounds of snow turned into impromptu traffic calming measures and it was fun to observe.

Plowing roads could cause flooding if Toronto gets heavy rains: Tory
Toronto Mayor John Tory warns that Toronto could cause flooding when the ice and snow melt if they plow some roadways.
See link.

What they should have done was to plow the sidewalks. There are no sewer grates on sidewalks that I know of that would be covered by the sidewalk plows. At the very least they should have shoveled the corners. But then, the automobile still has a higher priority over pedestrians.