Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[nfitz]

What exactly about the Conestoga Pkwy isn't up to standards (or the Freeport Bypass)?

The curves and design speed on the Conestoga aren't up to standards. And you can feel it when you drive it at 120 (which I did occasionally before they lowered the speed limit to 90 - I'm sure you recall all those horrible accidents and inquests). I don't think anyone has suggested the Freeport bypass isn't up to standards.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It's not like there aren't substandard 400 series highways either. The 400 has several at grade intersections (even on the new parts of it), and the 403 drops to 90km/h in Hamilton.

 

[Steve X]

What exactly about the Conestoga Pkwy isn't up to standards (or the Freeport Bypass)? There's no RIRO on it like Hwy 400 at Canal Rd, for example, and the 406 in St. Catherine's has even lower speed limits. Personally it just seems like the MTO doesn't really have a clear-cut policy about Ontario's expressway network and that decisions in that respect are mostly just ad hoc.

FWIW, I personally don't care about the road numbering all that much; however, the situation in KW is more than a little confusing for people who aren't familiar with the local road network. Some form of rationalization of the numbering system is certainly warranted.

Ontario is generally very good with numbering. In the states, there are sections can are co-signed I-77 North and I-81 South. Interstates aren't one main highway. You have to exit all the time to continue.

Freeport Bypass is actually at standard with 100 km/h posted. Section of Conestoga is not. There are places on the 403, 406 and 410 that aren't at 400 standards but those sections are much shorter than Conestoga. Which is 60% of the highway. It's worst before like the half coverleaf interchange between the Conestoga and Freeport Bypass. MTO put up a high flying ramp to remove that problem. Highway 11 is not 411 and 115 is not 415.

 

[Steve X]

It's not like there aren't substandard 400 series highways either. The 400 has several at grade intersections (even on the new parts of it), and the 403 drops to 90km/h in Hamilton.

When they designate a highway as part of the 400 series, there is an intention to bring it up to 400 standards except for parts like the 403 in Hamilton which is to keep a continuous signage.

 

[nfitz]

When they designate a highway as part of the 400 series, there is an intention to bring it up to 400 standards except for parts like the 403 in Hamilton which is to keep a continuous signage.

I'm not sure how that 403 is co-signed with 6 through Hamilton means it isn't up to 400 standards.

 

[Haljackey]

Progress pics showing 401 extension in Windsor 2012-2015
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hgparkway/

 

[innsertnamehere]

When they designate a highway as part of the 400 series, there is an intention to bring it up to 400 standards except for parts like the 403 in Hamilton which is to keep a continuous signage.

Thats why I mentioned the at grade entrances to the highway on the 400. Those entrances are on parts of the highway that are less than 10 years old. Heck, MTO maintained the 406 designation to Welland for years despite it being a 2 lane at grade highway posted at 80km/h.


This is on a 400 series highway that was constructed to modern standards otherwise. MTO will make exceptions when designating 400 series highways, they aren't super strict about it like Interstates in the US.

 

[Johnny Au]

Ontario is generally very good with numbering. In the states, there are sections can are co-signed I-77 North and I-81 South. Interstates aren't one main highway. You have to exit all the time to continue.

Yet, in Ontario, between the halfway point between Southampton and Owen Sound and downtown Owen Sound, there is a stretch of highway that is co-signed "Highway 21 North" and "Highway 6 South" along the same direction.

 

[Duke-of-East-York]

The curves and design speed on the Conestoga aren't up to standards. And you can feel it when you drive it at 120 (which I did occasionally before they lowered the speed limit to 90 - I'm sure you recall all those horrible accidents and inquests). I don't think anyone has suggested the Freeport bypass isn't up to standards.

Those accidents you speak of were cross-over accidents through the grass median before the tall wall median barrier was constructed. Through KW now, about 66% of the Conestoga Parkway and Highway 8 has a tall wall barrier (this includes the portion currently under construction between Courtland Avenue and Fischer-Hallman Road). The speed reduction was done before the tall wall was built.

 

[nfitz]

Those accidents you speak of were cross-over accidents through the grass median before the tall wall median barrier was constructed. Through KW now, about 66% of the Conestoga Parkway and Highway 8 has a tall wall barrier (this includes the portion currently under construction between Courtland Avenue and Fischer-Hallman Road). The speed reduction was done before the tall wall was built.

True, but one of the things that came out in the inquest, is that the curves weren't built for the same design speed that you'd use for a 400-series highway - the high walls were only a factor.

It's a local municipal highway - if Gardiner and DVP were downloaded, I'm not sure why only the very north end of the Conestoga was downloaded.

 

[BurlOak]

True, but one of the things that came out in the inquest, is that the curves weren't built for the same design speed that you'd use for a 400-series highway - the high walls were only a factor.

It's a local municipal highway - if Gardiner and DVP were downloaded, I'm not sure why only the very north end of the Conestoga was downloaded.

The Gardiner was built by Toronto from the Humber River (including the bridge) to the DVP (and a bit beyond). The DVP was built by Toronto the full length from Gardiner to 401. The Province built the QEW in the late 1930's from the Humber River to Niagara. The small at-grade portion of the QEW from 427 to Humber was transferred to the City of Toronto in the late 1990's. It made no sense to have this short segment as a Provincial highway.
I suppose the options were to download it or upload the entire Gardiner and DVP - and they of course chose the cheaper one. Either the significant traffic flows are along 427 and 401 (as Harris argued), or the Gardiner and DVP serve a Regional need. I think the latter, but people recently voted against uploading these costs to the province.

 

[nfitz]

The Gardiner was built by Toronto from the Humber River (including the bridge) to the DVP (and a bit beyond). The DVP was built by Toronto the full length from Gardiner to 401. The Province built the QEW in the late 1930's from the Humber River to Niagara. The small at-grade portion of the QEW from 427 to Humber was transferred to the City of Toronto in the late 1990's.

True, and good point. Though I wouldn't call the section of the QEW that was downloaded small. It's about the same length as the entire length of the Conestoga in the City of Waterloo, and almost along as the entire Ontario Highway 85.

 

[gweed123]

When Conestoga Parkway was a self contained short freeway, maybe it made sense to call that one highway (because it was the only one). Now that there is a network of longer freeways, it makes sense to have logical numbering for them all.

408 is the north-south highway from St
Jacobs to Cambridge (401) and maybe eventually to Hamilton Mountain (and the mid-peninsula highway).

477 is the east-west highway from New Hamburg to Guelph, with maybe extension west to Stratford and east to Acton, Georgetown, Bolton, etc.

466 is the north-south highway from Guelph to 401, and maybe eventually Hamilton.

Pretty simple to keep track of.

I like this. For continuity purposes, Highway 8 could be undersigned on Highways 408 and 477, like Highway 6 is on the 403 between 6N and 6S.

As for other posts about Conestoga not being up to 400-series standards, as has been mentioned there are lots of other examples in Ontario of 400-series highways not meeting the letter of the standard. 403 through Hamilton and 406 through St. Catharines are obvious examples. Also worth noting that the western portion of the Conestoga (west of the Freeport Bypass) is being upgraded right now. Judging from the work being done, I'd say the upgrades will bring it pretty close to 400-series standards, if not meeting them.

As long as the speed limit is posted appropriately, I don't see what the big issue is. To most people, the expectation when they see a 400-series highway is dual carriageway, no stop lights, no uncontrolled access. Curve geometry and median design should play an important factor in determining the speed limit, but IMO they shouldn't be the deciding factor on whether or not a highway gets a 400-series designation.

Signage and numbering is first and foremost a navigational tool. Does consolidating all of these different signed routes in 3 400-series highways numbers that reflect general travel patterns make navigation easier? I say yes.

 

[nfitz]

7 is already sign as 8 in spots. So sign it as 7/8/408/477?

This seems more like unnecessary fetishism than trying to provide for a simple system.

 

[gweed123]

7 is already sign as 8 in spots. So sign it as 7/8/408/477?

This seems more like unnecessary fetishism than trying to provide for a simple system.

477 and 408 would share a concurrency for a couple KM, but that's it. There would be no spot on the route where there would be 4 signs.

The Conestoga west of the Freeport Bypass would be signed primarily as 477, but with the 8 designation underneath, much as how the 403 has 6 underneath. The under signage is for thru consistency only. Nobody calls the 403 through Hamilton 403/6. It's the 403.

I would actually download 7 from London to where it meets 8 to a municipal level, since its use as a Provincial highway at this point is pretty limited. Very few people would take 7 to get from Kitchener to London. The new western terminus of Provincial Highway 7 would be Highway 466 (the Hanlon) in Guelph. This would leave Highway 8 as the only Provincial Highway that would be undersigned on one of the new 400-series highways in K-W/Guelph.

Between the Freeport and the new Highway 7 Bypass, the Conestoga would have a short concurrency where it would be both 408 and 477. Hardly a big deal.

It's only "unnecessary fetishism" if you needlessly complicate it (and use situations that wouldn't even exist to help illustrate your point).