Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[nfitz]

That route doesn't really use Highway 7 at all to get to London, aside from a bit of the co-signed section with Highway 8, which would still remain a Provincial highway under my proposal.

Good grief, you'll argue any detail won't you; look on the parallel routes that Google offers with similar times.

I said they took 7, and some would short-cut. Here, this is what most people seem to drive - https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.4...799b!2m2!1d-81.2737336!2d43.0095971!3e0?hl=en

Personally, this is what I used to do (at least to Lucan) which is the same travel time as the one I showed earlier, and is mostly on 7.

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.4...799b!2m2!1d-81.2737336!2d43.0095971!3e0?hl=en

People are driving this. Why won't you believe me? Tell me, what you've seen when you driven this road?

Highway 15 used to connect all the way to Highway 17, until the travel patterns changed and 7 became busier (this was a long time ago, so I have no personal knowledge of this, only records). At first it was co-signed, as you mention, with 7 from Carleton Place to Ottawa (or more appropriately West Carleton, at the time), and then was cut back to Carleton Place. Most nortbound traffic on Highway 15 entering Carleton Place turns right and continues along 7 towards the 417 though. So while not still officially co-signed, it still very much functions as such.

I don't think 15 ever connected with 17, other than a cosign with another highway. But I'm not seeing how this relates to downloading, as neither 15 nor 7 have been downloaded.

What I was referring to was trying to draw a comparison between Highway 15 between Ottawa and Kingston (assuming the small stretch of Highway 7 into that route) and taking 416 + 401. There are similarities between this and Highway 7 vs 8+401 from Kitchener to London, but I was trying to highlight the fact that 15 passes through more towns along the way.

It provides regional transportation, not local.

That route doesn't really use Highway 7 at all to get to London, aside from a bit of the co-signed section with Highway 8, which would still remain a Provincial highway under my proposal.

Good grief, you'll argue any detail won't you; look on the parallel routes that Google offers with similar times.

I said they took 7, and some would short-cut. Here, this is what most people seem to drive - https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.4...799b!2m2!1d-81.2737336!2d43.0095971!3e0?hl=en

Personally, this is what I used to do (at least to Lucan) which is the same travel time as the one I showed earlier, and is mostly on 7.

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.4...799b!2m2!1d-81.2737336!2d43.0095971!3e0?hl=en

People are driving this. Why won't you believe me? Tell me, what you've seen when you driven this road?

It's really only the section of Highway 7 from Stratford to Highway 4 that I'm talking about downloading here. West of 4, it already has been downloaded, and east of Stratford, it's concurrent with Highway 8, which would remain a Provincial highway.

I can't seeing it happening. Even the Harris government didn't think that was worthwhile.

Not really sure what you're referencing here, and where Highway 6 came into this. The section I'm talking about is from Kitchener westward.

Simply what I would apply 400-series numbers too, if one really had to.

Essentially there are (or will be) 3 continuous divided highways.

• 6 from 403, which (after a very short distance cosigned with 401 and up the Hanlon) will turn into 7 to the Conestoga.
• the Conestoga
  
• Highway 8 from 401 to the Conestoga

If push came to shove and one renumbered, I'd number the first two the same number for their length; and the latter I'd leave alone.

 

[Catenary]

Highway 11 is not 411 and 115 is not 415.

Driving it frequently over the years, it's been interesting to watch as the standards were improved with each part of the Highway 11 widening project. This aligns with calls from northern residents, particularly from North Bay, to label the entire highway 411. As the highway was largely improved from south to north, the northern sections are built to a much higher standard than the southern sections, but carry far less traffic. From 400 north, there are right in right out entrances and exits and a reduced speed limit. Further north, there are still right in right out entrances, but they generally are less frequent and the speed limit is 100. Immediately south of North Bay, around Powassan, there are grade crossings with side roads, but the 100 limit is maintained. The newest section, around South River and Sundridge, is noticeably overbuilt to the 400 series standards and has massive interchanges. Now, the MTO is going back to grade-separate some of the busier crossings, such as the line at the south end of Powassan. It's clear that they are gradually working towards making the entire highway a 400 series, but this will take time. With the policy that 400 series highways be continuous, we won't see the highway renumbered for a long time.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Good grief, you'll argue any detail won't you...

You do the same thing in other threads. (lol)

 

[nfitz]

You do the same thing in other threads. (lol)

Touché - though I'm not sure even I'm that stubborn - I thought that seeing all the optional routings along 7 would have been enough ... surely most people who shortcut through Punkydoodles Corners do return to 7 as I showed in the final post, rather than the alternative route that avoids 7, and saves you 30 more seconds?

 

[innsertnamehere]

Ahh Punkeydoodles Corners, home to the worlds highest street address: 986,044 Perth-Oxford Road.

 

[nfitz]

Ahh Punkeydoodles Corners, home to the worlds highest street address: 986,044 Perth-Oxford Road.

Good grief!

Looks like someone decided to give every house in the county a unique street number (no matter what street they were on).

Somebody seems to have missed the point of the new numbering system!!

 

[gweed123]

Good grief, you'll argue any detail won't you; look on the parallel routes that Google offers with similar times.

I said they took 7, and some would short-cut. Here, this is what most people seem to drive - https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.4...799b!2m2!1d-81.2737336!2d43.0095971!3e0?hl=en

Personally, this is what I used to do (at least to Lucan) which is the same travel time as the one I showed earlier, and is mostly on 7.

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.4...799b!2m2!1d-81.2737336!2d43.0095971!3e0?hl=en

People are driving this. Why won't you believe me? Tell me, what you've seen when you driven this road?

I was just going by what the route you highlighted was. Ok, so some people are driving it, but that doesn't mean that it should remain a Provincial highway. The only section of the route that's really worth keeping as a Provincial highway is where it's co-signed with 8. But that's just my opinion.

I don't think 15 ever connected with 17, other than a cosign with another highway. But I'm not seeing how this relates to downloading, as neither 15 nor 7 have been downloaded.

It did originally (to the intersection of Carling & Richmond Rd back in the 20s), but as 7 gained popularity as a route it was co-signed with 15, and then ultimately replaced it. 15 is similar to the section of 7 from Kitchener to London, in that it's a slower but more direct route to get between two points that are also served by a 400-series connection. The only difference is that 15 serves more intermediate points. That's all I was trying to say.

I can't seeing it happening. Even the Harris government didn't think that was worthwhile.

I'm not saying that it will, I'm just saying that a case could be made to do so. The bulk of the traffic is on the section of 7 that's co-signed with 8, so you could drop 7 from that segment entirely and not affect ownership on the section that mattered most.

Simply what I would apply 400-series numbers too, if one really had to.

Essentially there are (or will be) 3 continuous divided highways.

• 6 from 403, which (after a very short distance cosigned with 401 and up the Hanlon) will turn into 7 to the Conestoga.
• the Conestoga
  
• Highway 8 from 401 to the Conestoga

If push came to shove and one renumbered, I'd number the first two the same number for their length; and the latter I'd leave alone.

That's a reasonable compromise, and similar to what I proposed initially, only I had the Freeport Bypass numbered as 408.

 

[BurlOak]

I would want 2 main highways through KW.

Hwy. 477 going E-W and Hwy. 485 going N-S. (I re-thought the idea and agree its a bit confusing for 408 to go north to waterloo, while is namesake hwy 8 goes west).
Hwy. 466 would be in Guelph

 

[Johnny Au]

At least Punkeydoodles Corners doesn't have addresses numbering in the millions.

 

[MisterF]

There are other things from what I remember about 115.. I think lanes are 3.5m instead of 3.75m wide, merge lanes aren't long enough, etc.

lol...what did you do, get out and measure the lanes? The lanes look the same width as any 400-series highway to me. IIRC, MTO's standard lane width is 3.75 m, even on regular 2 lane highways. The speed change lanes are the same length as on other freeways. You can measure them on Google Maps if you don't believe me.

 

[Transportfan]

At least Punkeydoodles Corners doesn't have addresses numbering in the millions.

Those address numbers must increase fast as I can't imagine the road is that long.

 

[nfitz]

Those address numbers must increase fast as I can't imagine the road is that long.

They essentially treat every road in the county as a single road. Each house number is unique - the road name is irrelevant.

 

[gweed123]

I would want 2 main highways through KW.

Hwy. 477 going E-W and Hwy. 485 going N-S. (I re-thought the idea and agree its a bit confusing for 408 to go north to waterloo, while is namesake hwy 8 goes west).
Hwy. 466 would be in Guelph
View attachment 71645

I like that a lot. It's simple as far as 400-series renumberings go, and it's much easier to figure out than the current spaghetti plate of co-signings and weaving.

 

[nfitz]

I like that a lot. It's simple as far as 400-series renumberings go, and it's much easier to figure out than the current spaghetti plate of co-signings and weaving.

100% disagree.

It gives the Hanlon/7 from 401 to Conestoga 2 different numbers, when it will be a single roadway; with the the number changing half-way. Reserving 477 for an unplanned eastern extension which the provinec has been very clear that they have cancelled, instead planning to widen 401 to 4 lanes+HOV in each direction.

It reserves 485 for some unplanned southern extenison.

It has 3 different numbers for the Conestoga - just like now (477, 477/485 and 485). Actually 4, because the very northern piece is Regional Road 85.

Not only is this not an improvement - it makes things worse.

 

[gweed123]

100% disagree.

It gives the Hanlon/7 from 401 to Conestoga 2 different numbers, when it will be a single roadway; with the the number changing half-way. Reserving 477 for an unplanned eastern extension which the provinec has been very clear that they have cancelled, instead planning to widen 401 to 4 lanes+HOV in each direction.

It reserves 485 for some unplanned southern extenison.

It has 3 different numbers for the Conestoga - just like now (477, 477/485 and 485). Actually 4, because the very northern piece is Regional Road 85.

Not only is this not an improvement - it makes things worse.

Good points. I suppose numbering the Hanlon 477 as well would make sense. I do like that the N-S route is a single number though, instead of the Freeport Bypass being signed as a completely separate highway. 485 becomes Waterloo and eastern Kitchener's access to the 401, while 477 becomes the main E-W highway through Kitchener, and the highway used to connect K-W to Guelph.

I don't know that Conestoga really needs to be one number. It kinda functions as two separate highways, as far as travel patterns go. How many people who get on at King St N or University Ave are getting off at Homer Watson or Fischer-Hallman, or vice versa? Probably not many. Most from either end are probably getting off at King St/Highway 8/Freeport, Ottawa, Victoria, or Bridgeport. The overlap between the two travel patterns is really restricted to the area where the Conestoga would be co-signed 477/485 in the plan above.

In a sense, it's a bit like the Red Hill/Linc combo in Hamilton, only with flows in the reverse direction. They connect as a seamless highway, but the function mostly as two different highways. The difference is the Red Hill/Linc flows away from where the two legs meet, whereas the Conestoga flows towards where the two legs meet (Freeport).