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Roads: Gardiner Expressway

Yeah, that's why the Sheppard subway always has people lined up to wait for the next train...

Always love your sarcasm.

But you raise an interesting point. Why did the Induced Demand Theory not apply to the Sheppard Subway? Why did growth not come rushing in around the subway the way it does for other transit projects of that size and scope? Was it just such INSANE over capacity that induced demand wasn't enough to fill it?
 
Induced Demand Theory means there's not point in doing any traffic planning at all.

Traffic (and transit/cycling/pedestrian) planning is more about economic growth rather than congestion.

Throughput and resource efficiency allow the local economy around that resource to expand assuming that resource is the constraint on economic growth, which with downtown Toronto transportation access almost certainly is one of the primary constraints.

You can't solve congestion (in Toronto) by adding highways but you can grow the economy. Question is, can you get more growth per capital dollar through other transportation mechanisms. Sometimes yes, sometimes no; that's what planning should be determining.

Was it just such INSANE over capacity that induced demand wasn't enough to fill it?

Yes, massively overbuilt for a feeder. The only destinations of significance are along the Yonge line which is already uncomfortably full. You can't feed a 12 lane suburban street into an already congested 12 lane expressway and expect everyone to fit; most folks on Sheppard drive because transit (despite the subway) is really quite poor for their trips.

A great equivalency to this is Allan Expressway. It very very rarely is congested around highway 401 because the waits to get off at Eglinton/Lawrence are too damn long and people avoid it. The connection at 401 is significantly overbuilt for the actual capacity of the roadway to handle full trips of the potential users.
 
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I dream of the entire Gardiner getting this treatment. If only...
So where do the cars go tha use it daily or how big do you want lake shore to become? Taking down the Gardiner is not a solution to any problems if there isn't as suitable replacement for it, if we are serous about taking it down we need to look at what Boston did an bury it under the lakeshore getting rid of iot without a replacement will just mean more traffic on city streets that are already full.
 
So where do the cars go that use it daily

Haha, you must be new to UrbanToronto. Cars are evil and must be completely banished from the city. They have no place in future transportation planning. Ride a bike, walk or take transit. No car for you!!!

I joke, but I bet half the members on here believe EXACTLY this.
 
Haha, you must be new to UrbanToronto. Cars are evil and must be completely banished from the city. They have no place in future transportation planning. Ride a bike, walk or take transit. No car for you!!!

I joke, but I bet half the members on here believe EXACTLY this.
I know the poel that seem to think that putting bike lanes everywhere and improving transit will make ploe stop driving but what about the ppel from out of town that don't have access to all of that.
 
Have you ever been outside Toronto?
Yes I have that's why I said taking down the gadier is bad idea because many people from outside of Toronto use it. I myself don't drive but I see no reason to tear down the gardener with out a replacement that can equal the car traffic on it.
 
Yes I have that's why I said taking down the gadier is bad idea because many people from outside of Toronto use it. I myself don't drive but I see no reason to tear down the gardener with out a replacement that can equal the car traffic on it.
Did you read the EA, I suspect not and maybe you should. Taking down the eastern end of the Gardiner and replacing it with a boulevard would have been far cheaper and would have caused minimal traffic slowdowns.
 
Did you read the EA, I suspect not and maybe you should. Taking down the eastern end of the Gardiner and replacing it with a boulevard would have been far cheaper and would have caused minimal traffic slowdowns.
Why should I read an EA for something I'm against I don't think we need to take down any part of the gardner and replace it with the grand boulevard that people seem to dram will make Traffic disappear and it will become a wonderful place to walk and it will be great to be able to get down to the lake and harbor front all because the Gardner is gone.
 
It's a moot point since the city is going ahead with plans to rebuild the thing. Tearing it down would have been the responsible choice. It's currently a huge financial pit to maintain it. The eastern portion is the least used and there are better ways to invest money than to have freeways in the dense city on prime waterfront land. Like maybe rebuild TCHC buildings for people who need a roof over their heads. That's more important than the 2-5 min delay that a boulevard option would have caused. Not to mention the maintenance savings of not maintaining a raised highway.
 
It's a moot point since the city is going ahead with plans to rebuild the thing. Tearing it down would have been the responsible choice. It's currently a huge financial pit to maintain it. The eastern portion is the least used and there are better ways to invest money than to have freeways in the dense city on prime waterfront land. Like maybe rebuild TCHC buildings for people who need a roof over their heads. That's more important than the 2-5 min delay that a boulevard option would have caused. Not to mention the maintenance savings of not maintaining a raised highway.
Good because every time tearing it down gets mentioned there isn't any relly good alternative to replace it except for putting it in a tunnel like they did in Boston but everyone is sacred of how expensive that project became they don't want to do it plus there's the continuing example of San Francisco tearing one down and not replacing it. The ar are majopr difrnces bewteem all of the elevated Free ways in cities and many reason why they should be either torn down or maintained but if they are being torn down for the sake of tearing it down and not receiving the the road with the same amount of capacity it's useless. It would be like putting stop lights on the 401 if we took the Gardier down and just had everyone use the lakeshore to get across the south end of the city.
 
Why should I read an EA for something I'm against I don't think we need to take down any part of the gardner and replace it with the grand boulevard that people seem to dram will make Traffic disappear and it will become a wonderful place to walk and it will be great to be able to get down to the lake and harbor front all because the Gardner is gone.
A rational person would read the EA to learn the pros and cons of the options and be able to argue properly for an option that they feel is correct. The fact that you are against the east Gardiner demolition is fine, I would have more respect for your opinion if you had actually analysed the options.
 

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