Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[unimaginative2]

Yeah, still not really warming up to the tunnel idea. Its expensive, claustrophobic, and transit-restrictive.

How many buses use the Gardiner for more than a kilometre? Put a transit lane on Lakeshore for Greyhounds and GO Buses (which will hopefully be replaced by improved rail service). Problem solved. And I don't think we should really plan infrastructure around certain individuals' claustrophobia. It is a little odd that you're uncomfortable in tunnels, yet you like subways...

Wouldn't you rather spend the money on a new subway/rail line? Maybe something in a Queensway, Queen St., Kingston Rd. alignment? That way I can save on $17 taxi rides across the city?

Uhh, well if you have a look at other threads, my views on transit expansion are pretty clear. I wouldn't put a subway on Queen, I'd put it on a more southerly alignment, but all of that's beside the point. It's a very Torontonian approach to dismiss every idea with "Well, that means some other great project couldn't happen." Who says that burying the Gardiner would mean no new downtown transit? Maybe we shouldn't have expanded the ROM or AGO, either, because that money could've been spent on a subway line. It's a completely false dichotomy.

 

[TKTKTK]

How many buses use the Gardiner for more than a kilometre? Put a transit lane on Lakeshore for Greyhounds and GO Buses (which will hopefully be replaced by improved rail service). Problem solved. And I don't think we should really plan infrastructure around certain individuals' claustrophobia.

No, but we should be planning our infrastructure around options and common sense. Neither seems to be in abundance with the tunnel.

It is a little odd that you're uncomfortable in tunnels, yet you like subways...

For what it's worth, there are a lot of differences between traveling in a subway and traveling on an underground highway. It isn't claustrophobia exactly, but it's an awareness that in an accident or long traffic jam - I don't really want to be underground. I must be crazy.

Uhh, well if you have a look at other threads, my views on transit expansion are pretty clear. I wouldn't put a subway on Queen, I'd put it on a more southerly alignment, but all of that's beside the point. It's a very Torontonian approach to dismiss every idea with "Well, that means some other great project couldn't happen." Who says that burying the Gardiner would mean no new downtown transit? Maybe we shouldn't have expanded the ROM or AGO, either, because that money could've been spent on a subway line. It's a completely false dichotomy.

You'll be relieved to know that I don't follow you around the forums memorizing your transit positions.

Anyway, I didn't dismiss the idea with "Well, that means some other great project couldn't happen." I dismissed the idea because I thought it was expensive and unnecessary, and then I suggested an alternative.

It dawns on me, as well, that we're always talking about burying the portion of the Gardiner that doesn't act as a barrier, while ignoring the part in Parkdale that arguably does.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If the Gardiner isn't tunnelled but just removed, I wonder how wide some will want to make Lakeshore - 8 lanes? 10 lanes? If that happens, the waterfront will be no better off.

TKTKTK: since you're such a 'fan' of tunnels, you should rent/download Stallone's disaster flick "Daylight"...

 

[afransen]

People love walking around columns - look at the Pantheon.

LOL!

My nomination for quote of the thread.

 

[Hydrogen]

If the Gardiner isn't tunnelled but just removed, I wonder how wide some will want to make Lakeshore - 8 lanes? 10 lanes? If that happens, the waterfront will be no better off.

Interesting point. Today a friend suggested that the Gardiner be torn down and replaced with a six lane boulevard, a tree-lined median and traffic lights at intersections integrated into the street grid. She suggested that such a prospect would be so onerous to city drive-through traffic that we would no longer need to consider a congestion tax.

I am almost convinced that she's onto the right idea.

 

[unimaginative2]

No, but we should be planning our infrastructure around options and common sense. Neither seems to be in abundance with the tunnel.

Well, it's an option, and I think it's a good thing to get rid of the Gardiner. I'd support re-routing the traffic onto the Lakeshore if a tunnel is unaffordable, but this seems like a way to keep the cost of a tunnel down so that Lakeshore doesn't have to be widened into a 10-lane highway. Sounds like common sense to me.

For what it's worth, there are a lot of differences between traveling in a subway and traveling on an underground highway. It isn't claustrophobia exactly, but it's an awareness that in an accident or long traffic jam - I don't really want to be underground. I must be crazy.

Some people just don't like tunnels. That's fine of course, but I don't think we should plan our city around it.

It dawns on me, as well, that we're always talking about burying the portion of the Gardiner that doesn't act as a barrier, while ignoring the part in Parkdale that arguably does.

Well I remember bringing up a little while ago the plan to deck over the Gardiner east of Jameson. It's a complete mystery why the idea just disappeared.

 

[nfitz]

If the Gardiner isn't tunnelled but just removed, I wonder how wide some will want to make Lakeshore - 8 lanes? 10 lanes? If that happens, the waterfront will be no better off. ...

I think that's exactly the plan - 8 through lanes minimum - and up to 10 in places ... presumably with turning lanes at intersections. It will be a nightmare to cross - already the 8-lane section at Leslie at the new Canadian Tire has signs up, warning pedestrians that they need two cycles of the light to cross Lakeshore. And even then, you'll still have the railway tracks in the way.

I have no idea why there is this desire to get rid of the Gardiner - it's not half the issue of the railway tracks that would remain - or a 10-lane wide Lakeshore.

 

[cacruden]

Think about it. How the hell is it an underground death trap? Is your car going to jump up in the air and hit the ceiling? I suppose any tunnel's a death trap, then.

Let's see how a tunnel can be a death trap....

Ever see an oil tanker truck explode (after an accident).... now imagine it happening in a tunnel where the explosion is shaped in the direction of oncoming traffic etc....

 

[nfitz]

Ever see an oil tanker truck explode (after an accident).... now imagine it happening in a tunnel where the explosion is shaped in the direction of oncoming traffic etc....

Which I guess would be less of a factor in this tunnel than any other tunnel in North America - given that the discussion was of a tunnel that wouldn't have trucks in it!

Most cities have tunnels - Toronto seems to be some kind of odd exception. Trucks exploding in tunnels doesn't seem to be a problem - not as frequently as Gardiner-type expressways simply collapsing ...

 

[ShonTron]

There's one way to fix cacruden's lousy excuse for not building a tunnel...

 

[afransen]

Or vehicles flying off it... which probably wouldn't happen with a tunnel.

 

[adma]

Another case in point about urban tunnels as death traps

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

Well I remember bringing up a little while ago the plan to deck over the Gardiner east of Jameson. It's a complete mystery why the idea just disappeared.

That's a really good idea, and not at all far fetched like some of the things that get floated around here.

One could rebuild Sunnyside on top of the decked over bit. At least we'd end up with a lot more lakeshore park, and some decked over sections could be developed and therefore help finance the decking over.

 

[TKTKTK]

Well I remember bringing up a little while ago the plan to deck over the Gardiner east of Jameson. It's a complete mystery why the idea just disappeared.

Well, this I support. Assuming we're not left with some low-ceilinged punishment route.

Also, is it not problematic to restrict trucks from using that route? How will trucks make it into downtown for deliveries (and we're now already moving towards high-roofed euro-style delivery trucks)?

 

[ShonTron]

Easy. Prohibit hazardous materials and tractor-trailer combinations. Delivery trucks, cube vans and single-unit trucks such as moving vans would be fine. Underground expressways, such as the Ville-Marie have similar prohibitions.

The few trucks of these variety can still use Lake Shore.