Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

[goreckm]

Rental and home prices are pretty unaffordable across the entirety of the GTA. Further outside the major population centres (say travelling from Shelburne to Toronto) they're going to be paying an inordinate amount in gas every week anyhow. Low-middle class stand to benefit most from money going into transit. Reliance on over-paying for transportation is a real thing here in Canada. Owning a car in any community in the largest population zone in the country shouldn't have to be mandatory for anyone. Any change will bring short-term pain for those involved, no doubt. People need time to adjust, but fearing that has been half of the political problem here in the province. Drivers suffer anyway when we do nothing and still have to repair road damage (see the current Gardiner woes).

When given the option to take fast, efficient transit, most will take it. It's ultimately the stalwarts who refuse to give up using their cars are the ones who will suffer. And they are exactly the people targeted with tolls.

Even the Financial Post has gone to bat for tolls to ease costs:

How road tolls could help ease Canada's big city housing crunch

Haider-Moranis Bulletin: A carefully designed road toll regime has the potential to generate revenue that can then be used to help develop new communities

financialpost.com

Yeah, they're going to be paying a lot for gas already. No wonder they're angry at the carbon tax, and would be furious at any tolls. They can't afford it. But they also don't have a choice, except move out of the GTA, which is what many are doing, and that's going to cause much bigger problems in the long run.

And transit is all well and good for someone that works downtown, but if someone is living in a suburban community in Pickering, and commuting to an office / industrial park in Brampton, for example, there's no transit you could build that would make that trip time effective.

That's why it's a housing issue. Housing mobility needs to be higher, affordability needs to be dramatically increased, the types of homes that families are willing to live in need to be built near transit nodes. That's the only world where we can start making significant inroads into transit being a bigger part of the solution.

 

[turbanplanner]

There's a veritable army of office workers who don't need to be clogging the roads. Obviously it's not a perfect solution, but it buys us a boatload of capacity at rush hour. It's a no brainer.


Well it's also the commercial real estate tax base which is why Olivia Chow is pushing for return to office. As well as the automakers, auto insurers, retailers, restos etc who make money from people being in office. It's all greed.

Again, I have friends in small companies their managers/owners couldn't care less what Chow or the Landlords want. They don't even have a full floor in their buildings. They still went back into work since they saw productivity went down. This doesn't apply to every company but it seems silly to think if there is a conspiracy everyone is buying in.

 

[evandyk]

Yeah, companies are getting more people back in the office because their senior leaders think that their employees do better work from the office than home. I tend to think that's generally true of a lot of office work (not all, of course) even where your presence isn't specifically needed to accomplish your work tasks. Sure, Chow and other politicians are publicly pressuring them to get back to office, but they don't care - they want to make money, and they won't do that by leasing office space that they don't need because their workers could work just as effectively from home.

Amazon just called everyone back to work five days, and they're known for being pretty efficient. They don't care what any politician or landlord says, since they're bigger than any of them.

 

[Undead]

Again, I have friends in small companies their managers/owners couldn't care less what Chow or the Landlords want. They don't even have a full floor in their buildings. They still went back into work since they saw productivity went down. This doesn't apply to every company but it seems silly to think if there is a conspiracy everyone is buying in.

Where did I say anything about a conspiracy? I outlined a few factors why people are being needlessly forced back to the office. One of them is that commercial landlords and developers stand to lose a lot of money if people stay remote.

Amazon just called everyone back to work five days, and they're known for being pretty efficient. They don't care what any politician or landlord says, since they're bigger than any of them.

Amazon was ruthlessly efficient during covid when they and everyone else was remote. It's corporate propaganda that being in office magically creates productivity. I've seen people taking repeated coffee breaks (multiple every hour) and watching basketball games at work, really productive.

 

[afransen]

Oh, and I agree. People will bring up tolls but not consider the pressure it adds onto transportation due to those tolls being added. Instead of bringing up flying cars, you could instead suggest that it would cause strain on public transportation due to constraints with staffing, and having enough fleet to deal with the influx of travelling passengers to avoid the tolls, which is what I brought up in the first place.

Yes, we would need to provide more transit service (more drivers, more buses, etc.). This is a much easier nut to crack than decking the 401.

People also don't appreciate how little a reduction in demand you need for a significant reduction in congestion. 5-10% would make a big difference.

 

[duty free]

Yeah, they're going to be paying a lot for gas already. No wonder they're angry at the carbon tax, and would be furious at any tolls. They can't afford it. But they also don't have a choice, except move out of the GTA, which is what many are doing, and that's going to cause much bigger problems in the long run.

And transit is all well and good for someone that works downtown, but if someone is living in a suburban community in Pickering, and commuting to an office / industrial park in Brampton, for example, there's no transit you could build that would make that trip time effective.

That's why it's a housing issue. Housing mobility needs to be higher, affordability needs to be dramatically increased, the types of homes that families are willing to live in need to be built near transit nodes. That's the only world where we can start making significant inroads into transit being a bigger part of the solution.

The issue is more that three out four people living in the city of Toronto still commute via car, mostly by necessity.

Forget about the rest of the region, that's what needs to change first. Should be the opposite where 1 out 4 drive ideally.

 

[afransen]

And transit is all well and good for someone that works downtown, but if someone is living in a suburban community in Pickering, and commuting to an office / industrial park in Brampton, for example, there's no transit you could build that would make that trip time effective.

Maybe... you shouldn't do that? Unless it is a very well-paying job, why would you subject yourself to either a very expensive (407) or a very long and dangerous (401) commute?

I think you are raising a lot of very valid and important questions about whether it is a good idea to encourage long-distance car-dependent commuting in this region. Maybe the problem is trying to drive from Pickering to Brampton for what.. a slightly higher salary? Or maybe the problem is ill-advised land use patterns, where companies are encouraged to locate offices in car-oriented suburb developments that are not well served by transit instead of more transit-oriented office space--facilitated by underpricing highway use.

 

[nfitz]

All the talk here of infrastructure-based solutions is great. But this magic solution of Ford's doesn't seem to be infrastructure-based. It's something that would be done by legislation.

And again I struggle to think of anything else but tolls - and perhaps the businesses that are pushing this have finally got through to him. More likely it's something underwhelming and stupid like subsidizing trucks (or everyone?) using 407.

Perhaps he'll legislate the end to streetcar and bus-only lanes.

 

[zang]

We have the biggest transit expansion in our history, for the first time we have an effective transit co-fare, and tens of billions being spent on transit projects. Is there anyone actually complaining aside from Joe on Facebook?

Don’t give me that BS. “Be glad you’re getting a handout now, after being starved for most of your life”.

We’re catching up for nearly 50+ years of transit austerity by building transit planned 30 years ago.

We aren’t addressing current needs, we’re addressing the needs we had a generation ago.

Most of the TTC's ineffectiveness is self induced, telling constables not to enforce rules, slowly driving through intersections with streetcars. The liberals and cons both shot down tolls. Why bother bringing it up?

No, the TTCs primarily dealt with a council that’s starved it of money nearly since birth, and two levels of government more interested in photo op capital projects than making sure it has enough money to run properly, man stations, etc. or even bothers to give priority to people over cars.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Maybe... you shouldn't do that? Unless it is a very well-paying job, why would you subject yourself to either a very expensive (407) or a very long and dangerous (401) commute?

I think you are raising a lot of very valid and important questions about whether it is a good idea to encourage long-distance car-dependent commuting in this region. Maybe the problem is trying to drive from Pickering to Brampton for what.. a slightly higher salary? Or maybe the problem is ill-advised land use patterns, where companies are encouraged to locate offices in car-oriented suburb developments that are not well served by transit instead of more transit-oriented office space--facilitated by underpricing highway use.

Is it a good idea to encourage low-density job sprawl? No; however, what's built has been built, and the goal should be to encourage trips by transit, especially when the expensive and difficult framework, regional rail, is coming soon. Of course, this requires municipalities to step up local connections to GO Expansion when that comes online. Two or three convenient transfers might be attractive when the alternative is sitting on the 401 for two hours each way. IMO, these trips could even get double-digit mode share with the right service patterns. I'm also not a planner, so this is just some random person (bot?) commenting on the internet.

In a market (both housing and employment in 2024) as distorted as the this one, I can understand the impulse to accept a far-away job.

--------------------
As for Ford's announcement, who knows? I bet that it will amount to nothing (but don't quote me on that).

 

[Bojaxs]

For all you guys complaining about having to go back to the office. Consider the thought that if you can perform your job so easily from home, then that just means your job can just as easily be outsourced.

As someone who has a job that would be virtually impossible to do at home, I'm tired of hearing white collar workers complain about having to go back to the office 2-3 times a week. Suck it up!

 

[turbanplanner]

Don’t give me that BS. “Be glad you’re getting a handout now, after being starved for most of your life”.

We’re catching up for nearly 50+ years of transit austerity by building transit planned 30 years ago.

We aren’t addressing current needs, we’re addressing the needs we had a generation ago.



No, the TTCs primarily dealt with a council that’s starved it of money nearly since birth, and two levels of government more interested in photo op capital projects than making sure it has enough money to run properly, man stations, etc. or even bothers to give priority to people over cars.

My tone was not "be happy for what you're getting" I was trying to counter your claim of " if money goes to improving transit (speed, reliability and affordability), the majority of the complaints will be from entitled car owners" The only people I see complaining about the expansion are ironically transit advocates.

Getting a bit off topic here but long ago the TTC operating budget was funded by 3 levels of government, on top of that there were fare zones. I feel the vast majority of the issues there are cultural! Even things that are effectively free are poorly handed. Forgetting to put out or update service advisories, maintenance not having or following SOPs. ROW being SLOWER then mixed traffic (st clair)

For all you guys complaining about having to go back to the office. Consider the thought that if you can perform your job so easily from home, then that just means your job can just as easily be outsourced.

As someone who has a job that would be virtually impossible to do at home, I'm tired of hearing white collar workers complain about having to go back to the office 2-3 times a week. Suck it up!

I am in the same boat! Only worked remotely for 6 months 2020. Even then I was expected to be on site in a moments notice. The traffic even in late 2022 was as bad as pre covid on the Gardiner. The special constables helped with the bottlenecks. The RTO complaints often are people don't get their 2019 working conditions anymore. It's shared desks, in a much less spacious office.

 

[Dan416]

My job is definitely doable remotely, which is why it's in the process of being "centralized" to our office in Bangalore lol.

 

[afransen]

For all you guys complaining about having to go back to the office. Consider the thought that if you can perform your job so easily from home, then that just means your job can just as easily be outsourced.

As someone who has a job that would be virtually impossible to do at home, I'm tired of hearing white collar workers complain about having to go back to the office 2-3 times a week. Suck it up!

Going to an office doesn't have any bearing on whether the job can be outsourced. The nature of the job is what it is.

Perhaps in the spirit of fairness, we should make office workers work in steel toes, hard hats and high viz, without heating or air conditioning since construction workers generally need to. And those lazy construction workers better get prepared to receive phone calls and answer work emails at 10pm or while they are on vacation. Making people do unnecessary and cumbersome things as part of their job merely because others legitimately need to do those same things is absurd.

 

[zang]

Yeah, they're going to be paying a lot for gas already. No wonder they're angry at the carbon tax, and would be furious at any tolls. They can't afford it. But they also don't have a choice, except move out of the GTA, which is what many are doing, and that's going to cause much bigger problems in the long run.

They’re angry at the carbon tax because idiots like Poilievre keep feeding them BS about how it’s what’s causing all the problems with the economy. That same guy is also telling them “freedom” is owning two cars on a half-acre lot in a SFH suburb somewhere far away from a city.

We’re nowhere near being Detroit yet, and we’re still growing at an extremely intense rate; so someone didn’t get the note about moving away.

And transit is all well and good for someone that works downtown, but if someone is living in a suburban community in Pickering, and commuting to an office / industrial park in Brampton, for example, there's no transit you could build that would make that trip time effective.

First off, that’s going to be an hour and a half commute on a good day.

If someone’s driving from Pickering to Brampton every day for a job, I have to say they’re a bit of an idiot for thinking that’s in any way sustainable.

That's why it's a housing issue. Housing mobility needs to be higher, affordability needs to be dramatically increased, the types of homes that families are willing to live in need to be built near transit nodes. That's the only world where we can start making significant inroads into transit being a bigger part of the solution.

Get investors out of the market then. They’re driving a lot of what the builders are making and are a good part of the reason rental prices are so high.

Cities like toronto are seeing more than half of all condos and more than a third of all SFH housing snatched up as “investment properties”.