Road Safety & Vision Zero Plan

[W. K. Lis]

I think to make this work, you also need much more sophisticated traffic sensors. I think induction loops are pretty bad. With how cheap cameras are getting and how good AI is getting, it seems to me that a vision based system could work much better. It really makes it clear when you are waiting at a red light for 90 seconds with very light or no crosstraffic, then the lights change just as a cluster of cars is reaching the intersection. This rewards people for speeding to beat the light. This happens a lot at highway offramps in the evening...

If stores have doors that open as a person approaches it, surely we can use the same sensors to control the traffic signals.

From link. (Couldn't resist.)

 

[crs1026]

^Ireland has mini-roundabouts that are simply a white painted circle in a (formerly) 90 degree intersection. Work great.

- Paul

 

[afransen]

^Yup. In some ways a roundabout is more a state of mind or an agreed set of rules. The road design just helps to facilitate greater safety or higher volumes.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Trucks can do just fine with mountable apron roundabouts. The absolute smallest intersections above would not accommodate a turning truck with any kind of intersection (small residential four way stops) and would have 'no trucks' signs.

That's a truck. Now with an small automobile, they will have really bad encounters with roundabouts.

 

[afransen]

That's a truck. Now with an small automobile, they will have really bad encounters with roundabouts.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. You can't fix stupid, and at least with a roundabout he is likelier to only hurt himself and his car rather than mow down some kids crossing the street. You can only pull that stunt once through a roundabout, can do it dozens of times through stop signs with impunity until someone dies.

 

[ShonTron]

There's a small one on Windermere in Swansea, just south of Bloor West Village. Always wondered how it got built because it's pretty much a one-off. The only other one in Toronto that I can think of is on Wendell, a couple blocks south of the 401.

Yet the one on Wendell - and the one in Baby Point - are still controlled with all-way stop signs, which misses the point.

Vancouver uses small traffic islands along its bike boulevards (quiet streets that parallel major roads) to slow traffic at intersections, but without expecting cyclists to stop at every corner like Toronto does (they, of course, don't, just like drivers don't, but make good easy police ticketing spots during the occasional ticketing blitz.)

 

[junctionist]

That's a truck. Now with an small automobile, they will have really bad encounters with roundabouts.

As an aside, it would be nice to see the city use natural stone in the urban design of roundabouts. This video is from what looks like a rather ordinary neighbourhood that isn't upscale. But they still invested in stone pavements for aesthetic appeal and to discourage people from driving where they're not supposed to. Of course, that's aside from this one driver who just couldn't be stopped. We have so much granite and gneiss in Ontario, yet we settle for such utilitarian pavements.

 

[crs1026]

Yet the one on Wendell - and the one in Baby Point - are still controlled with all-way stop signs, which misses the point.

The Coe Hill/Windermere roundabout is not in Baby Point and does not have stop signs. It was installed in 2001.

This oldie and goodie report to Council may provide some context to how the City has traditionally thought about these.

- Paul

 

[afransen]

^ Seems to focus on more traditional roundabouts and does not consider mini roundabouts for low volume intersections (intersections of local roads). Stop signs are bad and dumb and have very poor compliance.

 

[crs1026]

^ Seems to focus on more traditional roundabouts and does not consider mini roundabouts for low volume intersections (intersections of local roads). Stop signs are bad and dumb and have very poor compliance.

I would like to see more of them on secondary roads. There is one at Kingsgrove and Belvedere in the Kingsway, which is such a low volume intersection that it makes ample sense. It is signed only with yield signs. (Of course, if traffic levels are already that low, maybe it's a low return on investment and money can be better spent on higher priorities)

I suspect it might be a hard sell to get all four land owners at any given intersection to give up land for a roundabout. City rights of way are pretty wide, but people may have planted shrubs, trees etc right to the edge of the sidewalk, or if sidewalks then have to be shifted, there might be encroachment and at minimum people might raise objections even if "their" land wasn't encroached upon. .

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

Trucks can do just fine with mountable apron roundabouts. The absolute smallest intersections above would not accommodate a turning truck with any kind of intersection (small residential four way stops) and would have 'no trucks' signs.

In Ontario that would require a legislative change, do-able of course, since under current legislation the line taken by the truck would be considered driving off the roadway (the red parts); i.e. the portion intended for travel. Otherwise it would be ok for a passenger car the drive straight across.

'No truck' bylaws still allow large vehicles to use the road if they are delivering or picking-up.

If they really want challenge TO drivers, they could build a 'magic roundabout' like Swindon England.

Swindon Magic Roundabout

This hilarious English intersection is an automotive whirlpool.

www.atlasobscura.com

 

[ShonTron]

The Coe Hill/Windermere roundabout is not in Baby Point and does not have stop signs. It was installed in 2001.

This oldie and goodie report to Council may provide some context to how the City has traditionally thought about these.

- Paul

I know my Toronto geography. I was referring to the one in Baby Point.

 

[afransen]

In Ontario that would require a legislative change, do-able of course, since under current legislation the line taken by the truck would be considered driving off the roadway (the red parts); i.e. the portion intended for travel. Otherwise it would be ok for a passenger car the drive straight across.

Roundabouts in Ontario have truck aprons, don't they?

I don't think a car would want to drive straight across, or you would have to do it rather slowly, usually there is a good hump in the middle. Straight through at speed would likely lead to a dukes of hazard maneuver.

 

[crs1026]

Roundabouts in Ontario have truck aprons, don't they?

I don't think a car would want to drive straight across, or you would have to do it rather slowly, usually there is a good hump in the middle. Straight through at speed would likely lead to a dukes of hazard maneuver.

My understanding is that those humps (and often vegetation) are deliberate....I have always found it counter intuitive, but more knowledgeable folks tell me that the center of a roundabout should obscure the driver's view across the center, so that they slow down and pay added attention before deciding it's safe to enter.

- Paul

 

[W. K. Lis]