Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

[ksun]

I don't believe we will see high speed rail in Canada in our lifetimes. I'd be happy if they improved VIA serviced frequency in the main corridor to boost ridership and make minor improvements to travel time. If we can get Toronto to Montreal down to 4 hours express that would be ideal.

I would be happy to see hourly trains between Toronto Montreal and Ottawa. Unfortunately, Via is always being cut and there is never money for service expansion.

I don't see a point in talking about very expensive high speed rail if we can't even get enough ridership on traditional inter-city rail.

I agree.
It is a shame train travel takes 6 hours between Toronto and Montreal, when much faster trains are becoming so common in other cities. It is only 540km, and even 4 hours sounds very very slow. 3 is more acceptable and that's still hardly high speed.
We are so behind countries like France, Spain, Germany, Japan, China etc. Heck, even Turkey and Mexico are building HSR. VIA looks from the 1980s in comparison.

 

[nfitz]

It is a shame train travel takes 6 hours between Toronto and Montreal, when much faster trains are becoming so common in other cities.

It's a shame you took a local train through Ottawa, instead of a direct train, through Cornwall, which can be as quick as 4.5 hours. I've taken the train many times in the last 30+ years, and I don't think I've ever hard a 6-hour trip from Toronto to Montreal.

Prime Minister Trudeau promised faster train travel in the early 1980s. People then decided to vote for Brian Mulroney, and VIA got savagely cut instead. Chretien promised faster train travel (VIA Fast) around 2002, and in the following election, the Liberals were beaten down to a minority and then defeated.

We've pretty much got what we deserve.

It is only 540km, and even 4 hours sounds very very slow.

135 km/hr average velocity sounds very very slow? VIA used to run this route in under 4 hours before the Conservatives cut their budget to the point that they can't afford the fees to maintain the track and run it that fast any more.

Still, it's far better than Amtrak does on some frequent routes, such as the 225 km New York to Albany service, which despite running 9 times a day, still takes 2.5 hours, averaging only 90 km/hr.

Or what about the famed Acela service doing 363 km between New York City and Washington. The best travel time on that route is 2 hours 53 minutes. That's 126 km/hr, slow that the 4 hours which you say sounds very very slow.

Let's looks at a similar length high-speed service in the UK, the 632 km between London (Kings Cross) and Edinburgh (Waverly). I believe the fastest travel time is 4 hours 30 minutes. That's 140 km/. And you call 135 km/hr very very slow?

I think you fail to fully appreciate the distances involved.

When you've taken Toronto to Montreal trips in under 4 hours, does it seem like the train is moving slowly to you?

 

[lead82]

It's a shame you took a local train through Ottawa, instead of a direct train, through Cornwall, which can be as quick as 4.5 hours. I've taken the train many times in the last 30+ years, and I don't think I've ever hard a 6-hour trip from Toronto to Montreal.

Prime Minister Trudeau promised faster train travel in the early 1980s. People then decided to vote for Brian Mulroney, and VIA got savagely cut instead. Chretien promised faster train travel (VIA Fast) around 2002, and in the following election, the Liberals were beaten down to a minority and then defeated.

We've pretty much got what we deserve.

135 km/hr average velocity sounds very very slow? VIA used to run this route in under 4 hours before the Conservatives cut their budget to the point that they can't afford the fees to maintain the track and run it that fast any more.

Still, it's far better than Amtrak does on some frequent routes, such as the 225 km New York to Albany service, which despite running 9 times a day, still takes 2.5 hours, averaging only 90 km/hr.

Or what about the famed Acela service doing 363 km between New York City and Washington. The best travel time on that route is 2 hours 53 minutes. That's 126 km/hr, slow that the 4 hours which you say sounds very very slow.

Let's looks at a similar length high-speed service in the UK, the 632 km between London (Kings Cross) and Edinburgh (Waverly). I believe the fastest travel time is 4 hours 30 minutes. That's 140 km/. And you call 135 km/hr very very slow?

I think you fail to fully appreciate the distances involved.

When you've taken Toronto to Montreal trips in under 4 hours, does it seem like the train is moving slowly to you?

The train moves at a fairly decent pace for the most part. My main issue is the cost of the train and the frequency of service. There are over 30 flights a day between Toronto and Montreal, yet there are only about 5-6 trains. The 4.5 hour express train runs only once a day. That is a shame, I think they should have several express and local trains on this main corridor. If serviced was frequent people travel habits may change. I think VIA should get into the regional express rail business and focus on serving the inter-city and regional markets in Ontario and Quebec. For example, there is good demand between Kitchener and Toronto, so why none offer more trains and at prices more reasonable. It shouldn't cost $35 to go from Kitchener to Toronto. Similarly for Niagara, there is lots of demand to Niagara but VIA cut service. Perhaps they should partner with other transit companies to make seamless trips possible. For example, offer train/bus connections to Niagara-on-the-lake or Niagaras tourist area from the VIA station. That way urbanites from Toronto without cars can enjoy a day in Niagara fully in transit.

 

[nfitz]

There are over 30 flights a day between Toronto and Montreal, yet there are only about 5-6 trains.

What's the capacity of each of those planes? What's the capacity of a car on a train? When supply exceeds demand, they add an extra flight. Or an extra car to the train.

The 4.5 hour express train runs only once a day.

Looking at the weekday daily Toronto-Montreal trains, there are 5 daily trains, 4 of which are under 5 hours.

That is a shame, I think they should have several express and local trains on this main corridor. If serviced was frequent people travel habits may change. I think VIA should get into the regional express rail business and focus on serving the inter-city and regional markets in Ontario and Quebec. For example, there is good demand between Kitchener and Toronto, so why none offer more trains and at prices more reasonable. It shouldn't cost $35 to go from Kitchener to Toronto.

You think that there should be more trains, but that they should cost less money?

Where does this money come from? The government hasn't been in the business of subsidizing transport between major cities for a long time (VIA's subsidy covers the non-profitable rural services, the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto services are generally run on a break-even basis).

Niagara services should be provided by GO - which are slowly expanding in that direction.

 

[rbt]

What's the capacity of each of those planes? What's the capacity of a car on a train? When supply exceeds demand, they add an extra flight. Or an extra car to the train.

There is far more flight capacity than train seats.

However, only a fraction of people flying are actually going to that destination; most are connecting to another flight. VIA is a very inconvenient way of getting to Europe or Asia or the Caribbean.

If HSR doesn't stop at the airport, these people would continue to fly.

 

[nfitz]

However, only a fraction of people flying are actually going to that destination; most are connecting to another flight.

What's your reference to that?

Statistics Canada surveys have always shown that most people flying into and out of both Toronto and Montreal are only taking one leg, and not connecting to another flight. When you look at cities where most are taking more than one leg, it's cities like Charlottetown, London, and Windsor.

 

[BurlOak]

What's your reference to that?

Statistics Canada surveys have always shown that most people flying into and out of both Toronto and Montreal are only taking one leg, and not connecting to another flight. When you look at cities where most are taking more than one leg, it's cities like Charlottetown, London, and Windsor.

Even 99% is a fraction (99/100)

 

[nfitz]

Even 99% is a fraction (99/100)

Yes, I guess that is so!

 

[lead82]

The train capacity on VIA is not very high. On the Toronto-Montreal route its usually 3 economy cars and 1 business car per train. While VIA can't compete wi flying in terms of flight time, it can compete on convenience of downtown to downtown travel.

I find that the VIA could be made more profitable if it provided longer trains on weekend trips and charged less. There is a big leisure market demand leaving on Friday evening and returning Sunday evening. Those trains are usually full and costs a lot more than advertised one way $44 to Montreal. I think a lot more people would take the train if costs were lower slightly lower and there were more trains. I'm not sure it would require a lot of extra subsidy. Something as simple as adding extra cars to a train to get more people. You don't even need to provide any additional staff as most people bring food onboard since VIAs economy food options are awful. I believe that VIA actually makes money on he Windsor-Quebec corridor and it's those northern Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba routes mandated by the government that are money losers and require a subsidy.

 

[MisterF]

I believe that VIA actually makes money on he Windsor-Quebec corridor and it's those northern Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba routes mandated by the government that are money losers and require a subsidy.

I've heard that too but I've never seen a source for it. Are there any VIA documents that say that? If VIA's Corridor routes already make a profit then improving them is a no brainer.

 

[ehlow]

I don't know much about inter-city rail, but it seems like the one thing Via should do well & have good affordable service on is the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor.

Doing some quick searches, it seems like Via costs quite a lot more than a bus trip. For Tor-Montreal I usually use Megabus, which is pretty cheap.

 

[rbt]

I believe that VIA actually makes money on he Windsor-Quebec corridor.

They used to but that ended shortly after Porter came into existence (IIRC, the older annual reports don't do per-route breakdowns). I assume they lost most of their high paying business class passengers. I recall a last minute VIA 1 tickets costing around $250 (taxes included) for a one-way trip to Montreal in 2003/2004. It's only about $290 today which doesn't keep up with VIA's cost inflation.

Here are some recent annual reports:

http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/our-company/annual-report

In 2013 (see page 7) the Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal segment had about a 40% fare subsidy. Extensions to Quebec City and Windsor required a higher subsidy.

Many other routes (labelled Mandatory Services) have closer to a 90% fare subsidy.

Amtrak is in a similar position.

 

[nfitz]

I've heard that too but I've never seen a source for it. Are there any VIA documents that say that? If VIA's Corridor routes already make a profit then improving them is a no brainer.

A few years ago, I took apart some VIA financial documents I found on the web, and that's pretty much what they showed. Not profit really, break even ... there wasn't enough money left to do more than subsidize some of the lesser used corridor services (Sarnia, etc.).

Doing some quick searches, it seems like Via costs quite a lot more than a bus trip. For Tor-Montreal I usually use Megabus, which is pretty cheap.

But is always going to be cheaper, given the huge government subsidy the bus gets. VIA would be a lot cheaper if they could get free usage of the rail infrastructure the same way that a bus does of the road infrastructure!

In 2013 (see page 7) the Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal segment had about a 40% fare subsidy. Extensions to Quebec City and Windsor required a higher subsidy.

Oh my! That's deteriorated. I guess we can see more cuts to VIA coming. And we can see why the Niagara Falls service was cut!

 

[diminutive]

But is always going to be cheaper, given the huge government subsidy the bus gets. VIA would be a lot cheaper if they could get free usage of the rail infrastructure the same way that a bus does of the road infrastructure!

The implied subsidy there isn't that big. The 407 charges 50 or 60c per km for heavy vehicles. From Toronto to Montreal that would be 275-300$. Unless Megabus is running their coaches empty that wouldn't be a huge add-on or come close to making up the difference with rail. The 401 between Oshawa and Quebec would also presumably be cheaper than the 407, were it ever tolled, and there's a certain amount of double-counting since at least some gas-tax revenue is intended to fund road repair.

Buses are cheaper since they're staffed more efficiently and easier to maintain. Without their operating subsidies I doubt via would even be competitive with airlines on routes like Toronto-Montreal.

 

[aquateam]

I don't know much about inter-city rail, but it seems like the one thing Via should do well & have good affordable service on is the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor.

Doing some quick searches, it seems like Via costs quite a lot more than a bus trip. For Tor-Montreal I usually use Megabus, which is pretty cheap.

I make the Toronto-Montreal trip about once every 6 weeks. Going by VIA rail is ~$140 round trip, whereas going by megabus is usually ~$90. Flying by porter is usually ~$220. VIA rail takes about 4.5 hours, Megabus takes about 6 hours, Porter takes about 1.5 hours. But VIA rail is so much more comfortable, and there is a station I can get on right by my work. When you factor in the time spent at the airport, you end up saving about 2 hours over the train trip, so I think the train is pretty competetive (I normally take it.)