News   Dec 20, 2024
 3.4K     11 
News   Dec 20, 2024
 1.2K     3 
News   Dec 20, 2024
 2K     0 

Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

Elon Musk reveals plans for 1,126 km/h ‘Hyperloop’

Pods travelling through tubes - "The system he envisions is not unlike the pneumatic tubes that transport capsules stuffed with paperwork in older buildings."

http://business.financialpost.com/2013/08/12/elon-musk-reveals-hyperloop-plans/?__lsa=0f35-76ac

30 minutes Toronto to Montreal. Not that I think this is feasible.

I've been reading through some of the technical details. It can all be done with existing technology. It's ambitious but perfectly doable if the government gets behind it. I think that Sacramento and DC would be irresponsible to continue pursuing a $60B high speed train when a $6B plan can revolutionize transportation. Innovation and transportation infrastructure fits Obama's policy remarkably well so I think that if Musk can prove that it'll work, the feds will get behind it.

If it gets built in California, it'll be a good model to follow for Toronto > Montreal but not so good if we want an intermediate stop in Ottawa. The Hyperloop is best suited for A-B trips, not A-B-C.
 
Publicity stunt. But actual high speed rail would need new tracks, free of freight and having to share tracks with slower services. Maybe Maglev which would keep any other trains off of it for sure.
 
One of the more eloquent critiques I have read so far on Hyperloop:

F-Line to Dudley said:
I don't doubt its viability as a concept. Pneumatic transit in the 19th century was viable as a concept. It's just that a white paper is nothing to judge the practical viability of the concept. Pneumatic transit worked the first time around, but it stalled almost as fast as the first test demos came on the scene because the cost of implementing it usably was astronomical and never ever would return on investment. Meanwhile, the old-timey "obsolete" technology kept evolving incrementally and kept being good enough that the Jetsons Shit never put a dent in its cost/benefit deficit. And not only that..the viable concept itself stopped evolving and advancing towards practicality.

Maglev is the same way...and that is a HELL of a lot more real than this. The technology has been proven in test labs since the early-70's, has 2 established revenue installations with a third about to open and a 4th in design. It is real-deal mature tech. But HSR (non-U.S. variety) has never stopped evolving either. And is good enough that when station stops are factored into the schedule vs. an endpoint-to-endpoint sprint at max track speed the speed advantage for Maglev isn't great enough to justify building an isolated unicorn mode over an interoperable common-carrier railroad. That's why there are more Maglev test labs being built or planned today rather than actual installations. You can string together an HSR network from dedicated track, some mix of legacy track, gradual evolution from legacy to dedicated, mix freight (yes...even the Chunnel and other Euro HSR lines carry freight and have seen freight increases on higher-demand corridors), funnel commuter rail into the same terminals, whatever. You can't, however, get from Points A to C or B to D on a dedicated mode that is only built for A to B...and may not have enough ridership between B to C to bother hooking up with also-isolated C to D. That's what upended the L.A.-Las Vegas Maglev. It's been recast (if the private investors can get fed approval) as the DesertXPress generic True HSR 150 MPH choo-choo that dumps off in the desert with a piggyback onto CAHSR + Metrolink for the last few miles into the terminal. It would never work as Maglev that stops miles outside of L.A. requiring a slow-speed transfer. And they probably still need to rope in a daily mid-speed revival of the old Amtrak Desert Wind LD train from L.A. to Utah via Vegas on the same track in order to get some other shared stakeholders chipping in costs on the corridor...which they wouldn't get on a dedicated Maglev.


A more famous example of unicorn modes vs. "boring" old common carriers is the Space Shuttle. The most complex machine ever built by humans, 30 years proven. And always a boondoggle that never found its calling. Heavy-lift rockets were infinitely most cost-effective at launching unmanned payloads. 1960's-tech capsules infinitely more cost-effective and reliable at launching humans, where the Shuttle's huge cargo capacity was wasted. And the reusability advantage was an illusion because post-launch servicing was so invasive it didn't end up very reusable at all. About the only thing it did well was in-space repairs (e.g. Hubble Telescope). And that's been virtually obsoleted by robot tech. The "common carrier" equivalents kept incrementally evolving and staying good enough, and not only did the Shuttle never close its cost/benefits gap...but that gap widened almost unabated over its lifespan.


That's where this is. There is no freakin' way it's as neat and tidy as the whitepaper says it is. EVERY whitepaper, right down to the 19th century pneumatic tube equivalents, looks unassailable until you actually start modeling it for real-world conditions. I don't know how they can ever build an El across California. You can't do interstate medians when there's an overpass every half-mile. At those speeds it would take 2 miles worth of inclines and declines to dip around them unless you relocated all the overpasses. So there's a couple dozen billion dollars right there, plus some potentially very motion-sick riders.

And how the hell are they going to achieve these headways and travel times--even assuming TOD gets built around the endpoints--with how many pods they would have to load and unload. A roller coaster takes several minutes and lots of employee assistance to strap everyone in. And a roller coaster has significantly higher seating capacity than one of these van-sized pods. Is it going to take excessive boarding times with how securely a person has to be strapped in...THEN require an hour-long wait behind 30 other pods to get shot out on allotted headway...THEN require an hour-long queue at the destination for 30 pods in front of you to unload? CAHSR full-build is going to be faster than that. This is why public transit smaller than city/coach buses simply isn't done except for localized paratransit. If you're going to have dwell penalties, you have to make up for it by moving more people per headway. Otherwise the operating cost in time, labor, and money is a loser to the extreme.


And on and on and on. What you're seeing here is a well-connected billionaire following the Steve Jobs blueprint at creating his own media cult following. Tesla's got major flair boosting it (in addition to being a quality product). The idea of SpaceX has got flair, although their actual product is about as utilitarian for what it does as a diesel locomotive. This is a publicity stunt to sell the "Elon Musk" personal brand, being no more than a whitepaper. He pretty much can't proceed into design-and-build without massive public-assistance R&D from the state and federal gov't like Maglev tech got in the 60's and 70's, and that is not going to happen in a less- R&D-for-R&D's-sake era like today without a huge groundswell of engineering interest in the technology like there was/still is with Maglev and boots on the ground actively building and testing components. Nobody has done that with pneumatic transport in nearly a hundred years, save for a fleeting revisiting of the tech in the early-60's that was abandoned when they found the same basic cost/benefit hurdles hadn't budged much since the 1890's.

He's certainly not going to get that far winging it with his own engineers, any more than any one lab is going to plausibly prove everyone wrong on cold fusion. Jetsons Shit never gets built by a single innovator. And Steve Jobs never ever built any Jetsons Shit...he just created a design cult around commodity tech. Much like Tesla and SpaceX are doing. The fact that this is SOOOOOOO different and out there from what Tesla and SpaceX are doing makes me that much more suspicious that it's little more than publicity stunt. And perhaps him trying to troll CAHSR a bit.

And here's a more technical critique of the system.
 
Can we move the discussion about MTL-OTT-TOR?

I'd like to respond to some of the comments and ideas raised concerning Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto, but I think that this discussion has become too off-topic for a thread named High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto. I don't know yet the mechanics of this forum, but would it be possible for the admins/mods to move these posts to the thread stated below?

Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

I'm a little disappointed that we're still only talking Toronto-Windsor. Given that the plan I imagine is that Toronto-London to be funded and Windsor to be studied and kept on the table as a Phase 2 for future use, couldn't they just go whole hog and study a route all the way to Ottawa? That way we can have a corridor reserved at least even if there's no money to build. This is important as almost the entire route from Toronto to Ottawa would have to be on a new greenfield ROW. Also, that way we can make sure that Metrolinx ensures that track space for HSR is protected along the rail corridors going east from Union.

I don't even get the need for a high speed train to London. London and Toronto may have a lot of highway traffic between them but how many cars are travelling between London center to Downtown Toronto? Via can barely fill the handful of trains that run between the two cities. Yes the trains are fairly slow, I believe it takes 2.5hrs to get from London to Toronto. The high speed train would do it what, maybe 90 mins? It's a bit of savings yes, but is there really demand for it?

I'd much rather than beef up the VIA service back to pre-2011/12 cuts. First lets see if VIA can support bi-hourly service and then upgrade to hourly or electify the line before building a high speed pet project.

Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal definitely has enough demand, but even then, I would first like to beef up the existing service. It's ridiculous that we only have 1 express train to Ottawa and Montreal per day. We should have hourly service, much like the flight schedules, and add a lot more express. Also if VIA could get funding to upgrade this main line, the trip can shave off 30-45mins and make it competitive for downtown to downtown travel with flying even from Porter.

My bet is the high speed train service never sees the light of day, but instead we get an expensive report prepared by a highly paid consulting firm.

The problem is that to first beef up the service between Toronto and Ottawa, we'd need to invest even more heavily in the existing tracks than we already have. If the eventual goal is HSR, we might as well use new dedicated tracks to ease bottlenecks, rather than spending billions on capacity that will become wasted once we switch to HSR. Unlike west of Toronto, the bulk of travel in the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor is actually between those 3 cities.

My suggestion would be to start with a dedicated HSR line from Kingston to Ottawa, built to 300 km/h standards. It would be limited to 200 km/h (or 177 km/h with current equipment) until we electrify the whole line, but would still provide significant time savings on the Toronto-Ottawa trip. This would allow us to consolidate service onto the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal route, rather than Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal separately. With most of the service lumped into one, hourly frequencies would be much easier to attain.

The California HSR project is using a similar implementation strategy. They are building a 209 km segment between Fresno and Bakersfield to 320 km/h standards, and it will be used by the existing Amtrak trains at 177 km/h until the full route is complete. But even under diesel operation, the line would apparently save 45-60 minutes of travel time.



Sadly, history is on your side.

That's actually a very good idea. Most of the Kingston-Ottawa route is only single track (after it diverges from the mainline at Brockville) with a few passing sidings which significantly limits the reliability and frequency potential of the track. There's also the massive slowdown at Smiths Falls that adds almost 10-20 minutes to the trip (trains crawl at practically walking speed through that town--like Guelph).

If Toronto-Ottawa, Toronto-Montreal, and Ottawa-Montreal services were merged into a single Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal service there would already be hourly frequencies. Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal are bihourly services now. Kingston-Toronto effectively has close to hourly service already.

I think this is a wise strategy. Although I wouldn't route the Toronto-Montreal trains through Ottawa, but rather build a new bypass line just south of Ottawa, with a branch heading into Ottawa, probably along the southern part of the O-Train corridor until it links up with the main line into the Central Station. This way, that branch could serve the Ottawa Airport as well.

Thanks for the supportive comments!

The last time I traveled from Ottawa to Toronto, a couple years ago, I tracked the whole trip by GPS. Because the train was non-stop from Fallowfield to Toronto, I was able to collect a wealth of data about the railway. I used it to calculate the lost time due to the Smiths Falls slow zone.

The map below displays the existing railways (blue), an HSR line (red), and the low points in speed (in mph) I measured on my trip.

u47Igi.png


My proposed initial line would be from Kingston to where the lines cross east of Smiths Falls (The train slowed to 85 mph there). The line to the east is the bypass south of Ottawa, which would be the final segment built.

On my trip, it took 14 minutes to cover the 22 km from the split east of Smiths Falls to the place where the two lines cross just south of Smiths Falls, an average speed of 94 km/h. Assuming that a 177 km/h cruising speed would increase this to 160 km/h (including slowing down to rejoin the existing railway), the segment would take 7 minutes.

My estimate for the whole initial segment (assuming an average speed of 172 km/h over the new HSL) is a travel time of 52 minutes from Fallowfield to Kingston, 35 min faster than I recorded on my trip.

At the time, the schedule was 3h 59 from Ottawa to Toronto, but now it is only 3h 48. Assuming that all the time saved is elsewhere along the route, this change would reduce the travel time from Toronto to Ottawa to 3h 23. In comparison, Google maps estimates that driving takes 4h 04 with no traffic.

I'm not entertaining the possibility for this line, but perhaps for the TOR-OTT-MTL line there should be the option for maglev contained within the study. Especially given the long, mostly flat terrain and the fact that the corridor will probably have to be rebuilt anyway. Any thoughts?
 
Last edited:
I think that that alignment above from Kingston to Smiths Falls should be built to HSR standards, but be built ASAP in order to improve travel times now. Ditto for the mainline from Smiths Falls linking back up to the current line on the west side of Montreal. It could make a pretty significant difference now, and if it's built to be HSR ready, that's less trackage that you need to upgrade when it comes time to actually implement HSR.
 
Why don't we focus (for now) on Toronto-Kingston rather than Kingston-Smith Falls?

[Edit: Re-uploaded correct Table 1 and Table 3, which had disappeared during one of the previous edits]

Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal definitely has enough demand, but even then, I would first like to beef up the existing service. It's ridiculous that we only have 1 express train to Ottawa and Montreal per day. We should have hourly service, much like the flight schedules, and add a lot more express. Also if VIA could get funding to upgrade this main line, the trip can shave off 30-45mins and make it competitive for downtown to downtown travel with flying even from Porter.

The problem is that to first beef up the service between Toronto and Ottawa, we'd need to invest even more heavily in the existing tracks than we already have. If the eventual goal is HSR, we might as well use new dedicated tracks to ease bottlenecks, rather than spending billions on capacity that will become wasted once we switch to HSR. Unlike west of Toronto, the bulk of travel in the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor is actually between those 3 cities.

My suggestion would be to start with a dedicated HSR line from Kingston to Ottawa, built to 300 km/h standards. It would be limited to 200 km/h (or 177 km/h with current equipment) until we electrify the whole line, but would still provide significant time savings on the Toronto-Ottawa trip. […]
The California HSR project is using a similar implementation strategy. They are building a 209 km segment between Fresno and Bakersfield to 320 km/h standards, and it will be used by the existing Amtrak trains at 177 km/h until the full route is complete. But even under diesel operation, the line would apparently save 45-60 minutes of travel time.

That's actually a very good idea. Most of the Kingston-Ottawa route is only single track (after it diverges from the mainline at Brockville) with a few passing sidings which significantly limits the reliability and frequency potential of the track. There's also the massive slowdown at Smiths Falls that adds almost 10-20 minutes to the trip (trains crawl at practically walking speed through that town--like Guelph).
My proposed initial line would be from Kingston to where the lines cross east of Smiths Falls (The train slowed to 85 mph there). The line to the east is the bypass south of Ottawa, which would be the final segment built.
I think that that alignment above from Kingston to Smiths Falls should be built to HSR standards, but be built ASAP in order to improve travel times now. Ditto for the mainline from Smiths Falls linking back up to the current line on the west side of Montreal. It could make a pretty significant difference now, and if it's built to be HSR ready, that's less trackage that you need to upgrade when it comes time to actually implement HSR.
I sometimes have the feeling that we keep forgetting the chronology of how HSR was built in Europe or Asia: In virtually all HSR nations, passenger rail had already achieved a significant modal share and the main reason for considering HSR infrastructure was less to reduce travel times than to ease the capacity constraints on the existing infrastructure: It was only after the need for additional tracks dedicated to the faster trains was established that the governments and their railway companies started to regard the alignment as variable. This is when they said “if we have to build new tracks anyways, we should build them so that we can reduce travel time as much as possible and thus decrease operational costs (on-board staff is paid per hour) and increase revenues (people are willing to pay and travel more if travel times decrease)”. The same reasoning applies when Japan considers building the worlds’ first inter-city Maglev service: Because the capacity of the existing Tōkaidō line has been reached with an annual ridership of around 150 million and despite 16 car-sets which accommodate up to 1,323 passengers each and run up to 13 times an hour: Again, the existing infrastructure has become too constrained (on capacity rather than speed) that JR Central is considering its options and building a new Maglev line (Chūō Shinkansen) seems to be more practical and desirable (i.e. economically viable) than simply enlarging the existing viaducts and tunnels.

This means that in order to maintain any chance of seeing HSR in Canada within our lifetime, we should intensify the upgrades of the existing infrastructure until we finally reach the point where we are only left with those bottlenecks where it becomes more cost-efficient to build a new HSR line than upgrading and adjusting the existing alignments. You observed well that the only way to economically build HSR is to merge the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal (TOM) and the more direct Toronto-Cornwall-Montreal (TCM) services, but cutting 35 minutes between Fallowfield and Kingston (as estimated by reaperexpress) will not be sufficient to offset the time penalty from going via Ottawa (TOM) rather than Cornwall (TCM) which is currently exactly one hour (107+109-156=60 minutes):

Minimum scheduled travel time Montreal-Ottawa: 1:47 h

Minimum scheduled travel time Ottawa-Kingston: 1:49 h

Minimum scheduled travel time Montreal-Kingston: 2:36 h

Map B1.jpg


As indicated by the Map above, I believe that the priorities for speeding up (and eventually merging) VIA Rail’s TOM and TCM services should be as follows:

  1. Upgrading segments which are (a) used by both, TOM and TCM, (b) can be mostly upgraded to speeds of 160 km/h and more and (c) won’t eventually get bypassed by HSR segments (Top priority): Toronto-Gananoque (exact segments to be identified later) and Dorion-Montreal
  2. Upgrading segments which are (a) only used by either TOM or TCM, (b) can be mostly upgraded to speeds of 160 km/h and more and (c) won’t eventually get bypassed by HSR segments (Second-highest priority): Smith Falls-Ottawa-Moose Creek
  3. Construction of dedicated HSR lines to bypass segments currently used by both, TOM and TCM, where the alignment prevents an upgrade to speeds of 160 km/h and higher (Medium priority): Toronto-Gananoque (exact segments to be identified later) and (though rather theoretically) Dorion-Montreal
  4. Construction of dedicated HSR lines to bypass segments currently to be used initially by either TOM or TCM and eventually by both, where the alignment prevents an upgrade to speeds of 160 km/h and higher (Second-lowest priority): Gananoque-Smith Falls and Moose Creek-Monkland
  5. Upgrading of existing ROW which will in the future be used by both, TOM and TCM services (lowest priority): Monkland-Dorion
  6. Upgrading of ROW which will no longer be used once all dedicated HSR lines have been constructed (no priority): Gananoque-Brockville-Coteau-Dorion, Brockville-Smith Falls and Moose Creek-Coteau
As you can see above, Gananoque-Smith Falls has to me only Second-lowest priority, which I would only pursue once the travel times on Toronto-Gananoque and Dorion-Montreal cannot be optimized further. Given the short length (40km) and heavily urban character of Dorion-Montreal, I would primarily focus on Toronto-Gananoque and start by approximating the minimum travel time of the current alignment:

Table B1.jpg


As you are all contributing also in the discussion on the High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto thread, I assume that you are already familiar with my travel time calculation tables, but based on the speed limits I assigned above, I calculate that the minimum travel time (Toronto-Gananoque with one intermediary stop in Kingston but none in Gananoque) achievable with the current alignment would be 2:19 hours – or even 2:13 (or 2:11) hours if someone acquires equipment capable of maximum speeds at 200 (or even 240 km/h).

However, in order to determine how these ideal travel times compare to what is apparently already possible with the current state of the infrastructure, we need to analyse VIA’s current travel times (assuming three typical train stop patterns and always taking the shortest available travel time between any subsequent stops):

Table B2.jpg


I know these is an awful lot of number, but the conclusions I would draw are:

  1. Cell G5 suggests that the infrastructure has already been upgraded considerably and to a point where I would estimate that further infrastructure upgrades may only yield an additional 3 minutes for a non-stop Toronto-Kingston service (e.g. train 42)
  2. Cells G10 and G20 suggest that multi-stop trains could be sped up by 5-12 minutes (depending on the number of stops) if existing rolling stock would be replaced through train sets with modern acceleration and deceleration capabilities
  3. Cells H14/I14 and H19/I19 suggest that the least potential for further savings may lie between the station pairs Oshawa&Port Hope and Napanee&Kingston (as the minimum scheduled travel times even beat my simulation)
  4. Cells H12/I12, H17/I17 and H20/I20 suggest that the biggest potential for further savings may lie between the station pairs Toronto&Guildwood, Trenton&Belleville and Kingston&Gananoque


This means that we have identified three potential candidates for further infrastructure upgrades under Category 1 (“Top priority”: Toronto-Guildwood, Trenton-Belleville and Kingston-Gananoque) and two potential candidates for a the construction of a new dedicated infrastructure under Category 3 (“Medium priority”: Oshawa-Port Hope and Napanee-Kingston). As for the Category 1 candidates, Toronto-Guildwood would require an upgrade to 4 tracks in order to eliminate conflicts with GO, especially as Queens Park intends to increase their frequency to every 15 minutes, whereas some part of Kingston-Gananoque will eventually become redundant as the HSR line Kingston-Smith Falls would leave the main line presumably somewhere west of Kingston Mills, i.e. after only approximately a third of the distance. Infrastructure improvements should therefore start with Trenton-Belleville (a segment which is almost straight) and then continue with Toronto-Guildwood. As for the Category 3 candidates, we should start looking for alternative alignments and it turns out that in both cases, the 401 allows an alignment which is significantly faster and shorter than the current CN alignment, where speeds are mostly restricted to speeds of 120 (and in the case of Napanee-Kingston: sometimes even 80 km/h):

The first HSR segment would be approximately 38 km long, leaving the CN alignment directly after Oshawa and rejoining just before Port Hope after following (and crossing two times) the 401 Freeway:

Map B2.jpg



The second HSR segment would leave the CN alignment in Marysville and rejoin it approximately 57 km later in Kingston Mills after bypassing Napanee and Kingston, thus necessitating the construction of new rail stations on the northern side of the 401 Freeway:

Map B3.jpg



With the two new HSR segments, I simulate the following travel times (again with one stop in Kingston, but none in Gananoque):

Table B3.jpg



This means that the non-stop travel time from Toronto to Kingston could be reduced from currently 2:02 hours (train 42) to 1:49, 1:36, 1:31 and 1:29 hours for a maximum design speed of 160, 200, 240 and 320 km/h respectively.

Moreover, the following table compares the minimum travel time (from Toronto with no stop in Kingston or Gananoque) of the current alignment with what would be achievable with the new alignments:

Table B4.jpg


Following this table, the new segments would allow additional travel time savings of approximately 15 minutes (of which one third originates from Oshawa-Port Hope and the remaining two thirds from Belleville-Gananoque). Furthermore, as design speed increases to 200, 240 or even 320 km/h, these travel time savings (originating from the new HSR segments as well as according improvements on the existing alignment as shown in Table 3) may increase to 29, 34 and 36 minutes respectively.


But what immediate effect would the construction of the two proposed HSR segments have on the travel times of current VIA services? As I’ve shown in Table 2, the travel times of VIA Rail’s faster services are already very close to the minimum feasible travel times I simulated for the current alignment, whereas those with frequent stops are significantly slower than the minimum travel times I simulated for these stop-patterns, indicating that VIA Rails’ equipment has rather poor acceleration and braking capabilities. However, if I assume that VIA Rail would acquire more modern locomotives, I estimate that the travel times (as calculated for these six typical VIA Rail services) would shrink by approximately 15 to 35 minutes (29 to 48 minutes if the design speed of the infrastructure can be raised to the LRC’s design speed of 200 km/h) between Toronto and Gananoque (whilst making the extremely conservative assumption that improved locomotive capabilities would not also affect travel times beyond Gananoque):

Table B5.jpg



The point I try to make is that as with any public or private investment project, dedicated HSR infrastructure will be most viable where it yields the largest benefit relative to cost. Where you advocate to build an 80+ kilometer long HSR corridor through topographical difficult and (presumably) environmentally sensitive terrain which would only serve the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal (TOM) services for years to come, I propose building 95 (37+58) kilometer of HSR lines on predominantly flat terrain and for the overwhelming majority of distance parallel to the 401 Freeway, whilst accommodating TOM and Toronto-Cornwall-Montreal (TCM) services from day one.

Unfortunately, the idea of building dedicated HSR infrastructure seems overly optimistic in the current political climate in Canada. Nevertheless, we, VIA Rail and anyone else interested in a more powerful Canadian passenger rail transport system can help by identifying those sectors which would free up travel time savings in the most cost-effective manner if they were bypassed and then focus the limited capital improvement funds available on the remaining (i.e. Priority 1 and 2) sectors until the governments in Ottawa and Toronto change their attitudes towards investing billions into dedicated HSR infrastructure.



The map below displays the existing railways (blue), an HSR line (red), and the low points in speed (in mph) I measured on my trip.

u47Igi.png

[…]Assuming that a 177 km/h cruising speed would increase this to 160 km/h (including slowing down to rejoin the existing railway), the segment would take 7 minutes.

My estimate for the whole initial segment (assuming an average speed of 172 km/h over the new HSL) is a travel time of 52 minutes from Fallowfield to Kingston, 35 min faster than I recorded on my trip.

At the time, the schedule was 3h 59 from Ottawa to Toronto, but now it is only 3h 48. Assuming that all the time saved is elsewhere along the route, this change would reduce the travel time from Toronto to Ottawa to 3h 23. In comparison, Google maps estimates that driving takes 4h 04 with no traffic.
If you want a less arbitrary estimation of the travel savings of your “initial segment”, post or send me the .kmz file you apparently created on Google Earth and I will compile for you tables similar to the tables of this post… :)


I think I need a beer now... ;)


Related posts:
High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto Thread: V: Toronto-Kitchener-London vs Toronto-Burlington-London
 

Attachments

  • Map B1.jpg
    Map B1.jpg
    97.6 KB · Views: 1,339
  • Table B2.jpg
    Table B2.jpg
    514.8 KB · Views: 1,276
  • Map B2.jpg
    Map B2.jpg
    483 KB · Views: 1,609
  • Map B3.jpg
    Map B3.jpg
    522.8 KB · Views: 2,245
  • Table B4.jpg
    Table B4.jpg
    380.8 KB · Views: 1,231
  • Table B5.jpg
    Table B5.jpg
    471.9 KB · Views: 1,272
  • Table B1.jpg
    Table B1.jpg
    878.3 KB · Views: 1,287
  • Table B3.jpg
    Table B3.jpg
    427.5 KB · Views: 916
Last edited:
I think I need a beer now... ;)

Wow, incredible analysis! Your point about upgrading sections that serve both the TOM and TCM routes certainly makes sense.

There is an option that you seemed to have missed though: your analysis concluded that running both the TOM and TCM HSR services through Ottawa wouldn't result in a dramatic decrease from using the current TCM, and this is true. However, using the CPR tracks from Smiths Falls to Monkland for both the TOM and TCM services, coupled with a spur to Ottawa (potentially via M-C International Airport), may get the time savings you're looking for. That way, Toronto-Ottawa and Montreal-Ottawa services would be using the spur, while Toronto-Montreal services would stay on the main line and bypass Ottawa completely.

The spur option also has the potential of being combined with an electrified Trillium Line (new name for the current N-S O-Train service). There are discussions about whether or not to include an Airport spur off the main Trillium line. The configuration that I see is from the junction near Confederation to around Bowesville & Earl Armstrong, the Trillium Line and HSR service share a corridor, probably in a 3 track configuration (2 for Trillium, 1 for HSR). This would setup a tunnel underneath the airport area, with a station directly on the airport grounds. This would also avoid the complication of having to split the Trillium service in order to serve the airport. This would certainly add to the project cost, but would provide a direct rail link between the international airports in Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal.

South of Earl Armstrong, the HSR service would join up with the exiting rail ROW (which is now the Osgoode Trail), and at the Confederation Junction the HSR service would switch to running along the existing Via track to Ottawa Station.
 
Wow, incredible analysis! Your point about upgrading sections that serve both the TOM and TCM routes certainly makes sense.

There is an option that you seemed to have missed though: your analysis concluded that running both the TOM and TCM HSR services through Ottawa wouldn't result in a dramatic decrease from using the current TCM, and this is true. However, using the CPR tracks from Smiths Falls to Monkland for both the TOM and TCM services, coupled with a spur to Ottawa (potentially via M-C International Airport), may get the time savings you're looking for. That way, Toronto-Ottawa and Montreal-Ottawa services would be using the spur, while Toronto-Montreal services would stay on the main line and bypass Ottawa completely.

The spur option also has the potential of being combined with an electrified Trillium Line (new name for the current N-S O-Train service). There are discussions about whether or not to include an Airport spur off the main Trillium line. The configuration that I see is from the junction near Confederation to around Bowesville & Earl Armstrong, the Trillium Line and HSR service share a corridor, probably in a 3 track configuration (2 for Trillium, 1 for HSR). This would setup a tunnel underneath the airport area, with a station directly on the airport grounds. This would also avoid the complication of having to split the Trillium service in order to serve the airport. This would certainly add to the project cost, but would provide a direct rail link between the international airports in Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal.

South of Earl Armstrong, the HSR service would join up with the exiting rail ROW (which is now the Osgoode Trail), and at the Confederation Junction the HSR service would switch to running along the existing Via track to Ottawa Station.

I'd also be curious to see how a 300km/h HSR alignment following the abandoned Bytown and Ottawa/416 (with adjustments) would compete against the VIA Fast alignment via Smiths Falls and Monkland on TOR-OTT, OTT-MTL and TOR-MTL trips (that is of course if you feel up to it.) While it may be marginally quicker for TOR-MTL Trips, I also imagine that the overall ROW purchases and and track construction would be longer than running a single HSR line (initially).
 
I'd also be curious to see how a 300km/h HSR alignment following the abandoned Bytown and Ottawa/416 (with adjustments) would compete against the VIA Fast alignment via Smiths Falls and Monkland on TOR-OTT, OTT-MTL and TOR-MTL trips (that is of course if you feel up to it.) While it may be marginally quicker for TOR-MTL Trips, I also imagine that the overall ROW purchases and and track construction would be longer than running a single HSR line (initially).

do you really expect to see a 300km/h HSR happening in Canada within your lifetime?
 
do you really expect to see a 300km/h HSR happening in Canada within your lifetime?

I don't believe we will see high speed rail in Canada in our lifetimes. I'd be happy if they improved VIA serviced frequency in the main corridor to boost ridership and make minor improvements to travel time. If we can get Toronto to Montreal down to 4 hours express that would be ideal.

I would be happy to see hourly trains between Toronto Montreak and Ottawa. Unfortunately, Via is always being cut and there is never money for service expansion.

I don't see a point in talking about very expensive high speed rail if we can't even get enough ridership on traditional inter-city rail.
 

Back
Top