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Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

Ah, I assumed you meant Acton and Ingersol!

Well, I highly doubt these locales are the equivalent to Weston.

Earlscourt:

And to be quite honest, the intent of the HSR isn't to benefit said locales - sure, they get some benefit from having stops, but it certainly wasn't the raison d'etre of the line. Let's call a spade a spade and cut that regional development BS policy makers are so very fond of but inevitably failed to deliver, against unrealistic expectations.

AoD
 
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And to be quite honest, the intent of the HSR isn't to benefit said locales - sure, they get some benefit from having stops, but it certainly wasn't the raison d'etre of the line. Let's call a spade a spade and cut that regional development BS policy makers are so very fond of.

AoD

I agree entirely. The only way this thing can work is if it serves to compete directly with short haul flights, and can siphon off some of that passenger volume. Which leaves in the hands of a comparatively small number of MPs/MPPs/MNAs to lobby for it.
 
Earlscourt:

Well, the problem is that we have pretty much no national transportation vision - we basically clobber together a whole bunch of goodies intended to buy votes and call it a day. Unfortunately, HSR will be one project that will have local environmental impacts and it would be a very tough sell to local communities that at the end of the day don't derive benefits from it.

AoD
 
AoD:

A better idea, to my mind at any rate, would be to focus on getting realistic federal money into transit, where it could generate a more immediate impact to a larger number of people. Broadly speaking, HSR is an expensive project that benefits a small, when compared to the number of transit riders, constituency. Which when you extrapolate it, the environmental impacts of HSR will pale compared to a real investment in local transit. Not that I have anything against HSR, I'd love to see it, but for any number of reasons I don't see it happening, and don't think it is money well spent.
 
A better idea, to my mind at any rate, would be to focus on getting realistic federal money into transit, where it could generate a more immediate impact to a larger number of people.
It is also wholly possible that the starter HSR becomes a provincial project. No federal money.

Within 20 years, imagine GO Transit deciding to run a high speed express GOtrain for Kitchener-Toronto leg, once they electricify the Kitchener-Toronto leg for GO RER and enough trackage has been added, and then uses it for a HSR lite project. The cost increment between GO RER Kitchener (with express/passthrough tracks all the way to Kitchener) and a GO express bullet train, becomes comparatively small because of the infrastructure upgrades brought by GO RER, if you leave London/Windsor out initially -- it might not be much faster especially in the Georgetown segment, but could still provide 40-minute service between Kitchener and Toronto.

This might depend on a future Ontario economic upturn, of course (a totally different subject, altogether).
 
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It is also wholly possible that the starter HSR becomes a provincial project. No federal money.

Within 20 years, imagine GO Transit deciding to run a high speed express GOtrain for Kitchener-Toronto leg, once they electricify the Kitchener-Toronto leg for GO RER and enough trackage has been added, and then uses it for a HSR lite project. The cost increment between GO RER Kitchener (with express/passthrough tracks all the way to Kitchener) and a GO express bullet train, becomes comparatively small because of the infrastructure upgrades brought by GO RER, if you leave London/Windsor out initially -- it might not be much faster especially in the Georgetown segment, but could still provide 40-minute service between Kitchener and Toronto.

This might depend on a future Ontario economic upturn, of course (a totally different subject, altogether).

I wouldn't get my hopes up. Transit in Ontario is too political and if the Tories win, any HSR talks will be rightfully squashed. We don't need HSR, we need proper service. GO should take over the London-Toronto corridor through Kitchener, add tracks, improve the conditions to allow regular train speeds of 120-150km/hr. At this speed, VIA or GO can offer frequent service. I'm not holding my breath that in 10 years we'll get all day/two way service on all GO lines. We will likely only get Stouffville and the Kitchener and Lakeshore lines done (not bad but nothing amazing either).

The transit politics in this country are all about shiny baubles (subways, HSR's), when what is really needed is more frequent service with greater coverage. So much money is wasted on pet projects rather than making smart investments in infrastructure. Instead we get subways to Walmarts, or a $3B Scarborough subway where the demand barely justifies it in 20/30 years.

Invest in the service first. There should be at a minimum hourly service between major Ontario towns to Toronto. Hamilton and Oshawa have this. London/Kitchener/Waterloo should also get this.

Who will use HSR if we spend tonnes of money on a shiny new line that costs $50 to ride each way with only 1-2 trips a day? Successful HSR's globally rely on feeder systems. Just like the TTC relies buses to feed the subway, HSR will need a dense rail/bus network to feed passengers. Right now the VIA stations are ghost-towns with less than a handful of trains a day. Those HSR billions would be better spend on improving GO train frequency and building better rail capacity to allow for all-day two way service.
 
Who will use HSR if we spend tonnes of money on a shiny new line that costs $50 to ride each way with only 1-2 trips a day? Successful HSR's globally rely on feeder systems. Just like the TTC relies buses to feed the subway, HSR will need a dense rail/bus network to feed passengers. Right now the VIA stations are ghost-towns with less than a handful of trains a day. Those HSR billions would be better spend on improving GO train frequency and building better rail capacity to allow for all-day two way service.
I'm not talking about this decade, but in the future. The kind of "it feels like it finally will happen within my lifetime" future, but not within ten years. And I'm not yet even talking about London.
Think of the incremental approach --

- Current planned rail upgrades occur.
- Eventually, GO starts regular 2-way allday service to Kitchener (e.g. every 2-hours)
- SmartTrack gets built, electricifying to Mt Dennis and maybe Brampton (if they redirect SmartTrack north instead of down Eglinton)
- Meanwhile, Kitchener builds its LRT and feeder networks, for GO RER Kitchener all-day service
- Meanwhile, while all this is happening, the rail get double-tracked most of the way.
- In order to get more regular service to Kitchener (e.g. hourly service or more frequent)
- GO upgrades Kitchener service to hourly.
- GO RER initiatives eventually electricifies to Kitchener.
- Lines get resignalled and 'improved' as they undergo refurbishment and maintenance, upgrading rating to 200kph in straight sections
- Metrolinx purchases faster commuter EMU's capable of 200kph-ish. They woud look like 'lite' high speed trains.
- They run it over existing Kitchener route, with no new lines, going 200kph only over small straight segments.
- Peak period express trains start from Kitchener, bringing the commute time to a more tolerable "slightly above an hour" rather than two hours
- Doubletracking all the way to Kitchener completed (along existing ROW)
- Metroinx decide to trial some even faster HSR trainsets, to test feasibility of going faster, and for testing line upgrades.
- Next time when the rails get refurbished, they install 300kph-rated rail along the straight sections, beginning with rail in the rural areas beyond Brampton, to allow the trains to sprint for a bit.
- Eventually Metrolinx decides they want express rail routes that bypasses some towns (roughly along existing high speed route) because the Kitchener 200kph GO RER trains are now overcrowded. GO Trains that are semi-express go along the original ROW, while GO Trains that are express will use the new HSR ROW.
- Over time, certain segments gets regraded, e.g. vertical curvature and alignment issues.
- Meanwhile, London builds feeder transit networks
- London gets thrown into the mix, during some future supporting government, finally completing the original HSR route

The service plan would likely be hourly or half-hourly 200kph semi-express trains, and several peak-period 300kph express trains possibly sometime in the 2030s or 2040s (two decades, not one decade). And I'm not yet talking about London...

Some European cities have gone through an incremental approach like this, upgrading to 200kph gradually, before going the big-bang of a new ROW for 300kph. In theory, the GO incremental approach can be applied to HSR, to the point where "only under a billion at a time" is spent, per incremental step. It's not ideal, but there is enough momentum is in Metrolinx to pull it off 'eventually'.
 
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Earlscourt:

Well, the problem is that we have pretty much no national transportation vision - we basically clobber together a whole bunch of goodies intended to buy votes and call it a day. Unfortunately, HSR will be one project that will have local environmental impacts and it would be a very tough sell to local communities that at the end of the day don't derive benefits from it.

AoD

I always wonder why a provincial plan (or 2 provinces) requires a "national transportation vision"? Everyone wants transportation but doesn't want to spend the money.

In the Canadian constitution it is the provincial responsibility for transit ("local works") other than when the federal government takes responsibility (and only if it is between 2 provinces). There is also a clause where the federal government was responsible to build a railway across the 4 provinces (at the time).

If Ontario wants to build a railway Ontario should commit to build a railway. The federal government has given the provinces $7b a year for 10 years for infrastructure (based on population). Ontario can spend the $3b a year it wants as it deems appropriate ($30 billion over 10 years is a lot of money). It is not the federal government's responsibility under the constitution to create a policy...they can only give money to the provinces to do what they want.

....of course if they want to meddle in the provinces affairs we can always see how much they will kick and scream.
 
I guess the same could be said about Canada

America's Trains Suck Because Most Americans Don't Ride Them

Yesterday, the New York Times reported that the US devotes so little to train improvements that it may be affecting overall passenger safety. Our per capita spending on rail is much less than most nations—far behind all of Europe and Japan, but also behind countries like India and Russia. China has built a high-speed rail empire in the last decade that includes the world’s longest route as well as projects in other countries.

The US’s system is absolutely antiquated compared to almost any other country. Here’s the most damning passage:


Japan’s famous Shinkansen “bullet train†network has never experienced a fatal crash or derailment in 51 years of operation, while in France the same can be said of its gleaming fleet of high-speed TGVs, which have zipped across the French countryside for close to three decades.
More.......http://gizmodo.com/americas-trains-suck-because-most-americans-dont-ride-t-1704575519
 
I feel like Amtrak should focus on investing in the corridors that are successful: North East - Boston-NYC-Washington and maybe Cali SF-LA, maybe one of two more.

Same with Via rail and the main Canadian corridor (Windsor-Waterloo-Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-QC). The only other one I can think of is maybe Calgary to Edmonton?

I don't see as much of a point running trains through sparsely populated and extremely geographically big areas of the counties..
 
I feel like Amtrak should focus on investing in the corridors that are successful: North East - Boston-NYC-Washington and maybe Cali SF-LA, maybe one of two more.

Same with Via rail and the main Canadian corridor (Windsor-Waterloo-Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-QC). The only other one I can think of is maybe Calgary to Edmonton?

I don't see as much of a point running trains through sparsely populated and extremely geographically big areas of the counties..

There's certainly a business case for it - IIRC the Windsor-QC corridor basically breaks even every year without the factoring in the subsidy. Most of the subsidy covers the rest of the country
 
I guess the same could be said about Canada

America's Trains Suck Because Most Americans Don't Ride Them

Yesterday, the New York Times reported that the US devotes so little to train improvements that it may be affecting overall passenger safety. Our per capita spending on rail is much less than most nations—far behind all of Europe and Japan
If you isolate it to the province of Ontario alone, it is much higher per-capita, thanks to Metrolinxs' massively hugely increased budgets of recent years. (GO expansions, Lakeshore 30-min, Georgetown corridor, UPX, the Union redo, GO RER, etc). Ontario then shows up as an outlier in the statistics, to the scale that the budgets currently being talked about -- if hugely increased rail spending continues -- HSR is probably happening in Ontario by the 2030s -- but only if the spending rate continues beyond GO RER introduction.

There's certainly a business case for it - IIRC the Windsor-QC corridor basically breaks even every year without the factoring in the subsidy. Most of the subsidy covers the rest of the country
I believe that London-Kitchener-Tororonto is a quite viable corridor to gradually push into high speed direction through incremental upgrades (electrification, grade separation, and new straighter corridors). By 2030s when High Speed construction starts or completes, the population density along the corridor is viable. In France and Japan high speed trains are used like commuter trains.

Toronto-Kitchener-Ottawa-Montreal is another great combination that probably would also be viable within a couple of decades, with a few semiexpresses & expresses. The semiexpress high speed trains (e.g. a few selected extra stops on various HSR routes like Guelph, Brampton, Oshawa, Belleville, Kingston, Brockville, etc) mixed with express high speed trains (nonstop to Kitchener/Ottawa, or Kinston/London), in the Japan/France style model of express and semiexpress. Toronto housing market is permanently overpriced to a lot of people, and such people who do not want a condo, will buy along a high speed corridor, and will be even more viable when there's already really good transit networks in the cities (e.g. Ottawa's Confederation, Waterloo's ION LRT, Toronto's transit expansions over the next 20 years). If Kingston is only an hour away from your Toronto or Ottawa office, it easily is a future population-doubler.

Windsor may be a tougher sell until there are good high speed connections into the USA, with fast on-board pre-clearance so we can zoom across the country border like an Eurostar train.

I'd imagine London-Kitchener-Toronto can occur as a "GO RER Phase II" type 10-year plan -- before Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal, just because it's something well within Metrolinx's new modern spending budget trends (billions spent on several megaprojects), contrasting with VIA's cash-starved nature at the current moment. Five years ago, GO didn't know they would get a $13.5 billion dollar budget for a large electricifation initiative. Census statistical analyses say, that by 2041, GTA's population will be almost 50% bigger (Which is by the time HSR is finished built), and if current Ontario rail-happy spending accelerates (if GTA loves the new LRTs and RER trains), a new RER II budget could possibly include GO HSR (e.g. a future 10-year plan ~2025-2035). There are some HSR corridors in Japan and France that has lower average population density than than London-Kitchener-Toronto, and even Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal, but add 50% more to that! And the business case becomes even more solid, considering continued population growth beyond.

In both France and Japan, are single train stations that are serviced by more high speed trains than today's Toronto Union servicing GO trains! Over 300 high speed trains in one day at respective flagship high speed train stations! Even an Ontario HSR introduction will just bring relatively few high speed trains (profitable) at first; certain sections of corridor can sustain it by 2030s especially if healthy population growth continues.

Even nonwithstanding Canada being the only G8 country without a HSR route -- we really need to begin planning HSR. If we begin planning for it now, it is probably not going to be running before the 2030s, and maybe not until around the 2040s. The The Ontario HSR EA/feasibility study that's just been started, is as far as I know, the most serious study since the TurboTrain days of yesteryear. When the EA completes and comes out perhaps by 2018-ish into a new government (possibly as an election issue; and possibly a favourable new government), it might even be the one that very well eventually approve incremental construction during the 2020s that ultimately completes by the 2030s-2040s, for the most financially-viable segments of the corridor. Current Georgetown work and electrification initiatives count towards HSR progress, so the more incremental work that continues to be done, the less work, less budget, and less political capital it will take to introduce HSR. Ultimately, eventually, GO and VIA can both share the high speed corridor, much like TGV (France domestic HSR) and Eurostar (Europe international HSR) often share the same dedicated high speed track.

There is already at least a three-city corridor that is already viable for HSR. Even if not yet necessarily all the way to Windsor or QC (the starter will help begin that eventuality when financially viable to stretch to Windsor/Quebec). So we got to begin planning now for a starter three-city segment, before we're forced to expand the freeways even far more massively than many of us would like.

By 2030s, HSR is really a no-brainer...
 
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