Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

[mdrejhon]

But a less frequent service like HSR may be something that could work.

HSR is not necessarily less frequent. There are more TGV trains visiting Paris' main train station everyday, than GOTrains visiting Toronto Union today. In fact, some TGV high speed trains have 3 minute headways -- Some part of their TGV network is like a high speed GO train network, in a way.

Ditto for Japan, which have extremely frequent high speed trains where you just wait for them subway-style, on some highly-trafficked routes. On some routes, Shinkansen is more subway-frequent than our Sheppard subway -- you don't need a timetable for some city pairs!

Depending on how we implement high speed trains, we might have ultrahigh-frequency high speed trains that completely replace express GO trains & bus service between specific city centres (e.g. Kitchener-Waterloo and Toronto).

By the 2030s-2040s+ (when it all makes sense) the corridor may be sufficiently densified enough, and the public transit in both cities strong enough, to warrant all-day two-way high speed express trains, with a single Pearson stop, plus semiexpress trains that also stop at certain upgraded GO stations. This is, of course, all dependant, on capacity available through the constrained corridor -- but if it replaced the GO train service bus service, it does free up the capacity. As the high speed trains now become much faster than the car, it pulls some people off the roads, and the popular intercity buses would likely end; and the demographic evolution, this likely pretty much fill half-hourly trains by the 2030s; making GO service redundant except to a few lower-traffic stations

The CN Brampton subdivision would be the primary showstopper, that said, assuming the small section of constrained corridor was triple-tracked (something already being investigated) and the high speed trains replaced the GO trains, there's no reason why it isn't possible. They would have to interleave directions, something doable with hourly or half-hourly service, as the rest of the CN Brampton subdivision can be four-tracked (outside of Brampton downtown) so it would be a very short section of triple track that constrains freight / occasional GO train / frequent bidirectional commuter HSR.

Any service more frequent, will probably pretty much force a serious discussion of the difficult and complex Freight Bypass ultra-megaproject. But half-hourly high speed trains would look to be doable without kicking freight trains off the Brampton subdivision...

 

[MisterF]

Yup, in other countries HSR trains are used as commuter trains in major urban areas. We're likely to see a system where commuter, RER, and intercity HSR trains are one and the same system. The only differences would be some trains stopping at more stations than others, which GO does already, and some trains serving small towns that express trains would bypass.

Eight of which existed prior to the recent construction, and have existed since about 2002. Essentially the old late morning and early afternoon service has been restored, but is hourly now and not about every 2 hours like it used to be; and they've extended the service 2 more stations to Mount Plesasant from Bramalea.

But there's no reverse peak service, pre-AM rush service, early evening service, or late evening service. It's not even close to all-day service.

If you were to try and use it to commute to Brampton, you'd only be successful if you were working a 6-hour day; as the first westbound train arrives at about 9:30 AM, and the last eastbound departs at about 4 pm. (and the last two eastbound departures miss all the stations in Toronto except Union).

Okay so maybe all day service wasn't quite the right terminology to use, but there's still a notable service upgrade coming next week that's a step to full RER. This type of upgrade was brought up as an alternative to full HSR, and my point was that it's happening already.

It might be easier to reconfigure the existing passenger and freight lines that go through the centre of the cities to handle HSR; and build a completely new rail network that doesn't go through the centre of the cities for freight. 150 years ago industrial areas were in the centre of the cities, now they are out on the edges. It doesn't make sense to keep running freight trains through city centres.

That may be possible in some cases. I recall that the VIA Fast proposal would have consolidated CN and CP service in southwestern Ontario onto a single line, with the other line taken over by VIA. And then there's the proposal (not sure how serious it is) to build a CP bypass to free up their mainline for passenger service.

There is the aforementioned feasibility study, which has determined that the Toronto-Montreal section will operate at a net benefit, when you establish a new ROW. The London-Toronto sections would not, and that was with using at least half existing ROW. Making a new ROW makes more sense if the analysis shows there is enough demand for the train in the first place.

That analysis recommended a different right of way, bypassing Pearson and Kitchener completely. From what I remember they basically dismissed any kind of integration of services. They also drove up costs by assuming that every side road would have an overpass, among other odd assumptions. Other feasibility studies in the past have concluded that HSR to London was feasible (although not as profitable as to Montreal), and they recommended the Kitchener corridor. The currently proposed line is more about Kitchener than it is about London so the study you referenced study isn't really relevant.

 

[gweed123]

Do you think that the Midtown corridor might be a better alternative than USRC (provided that a freight bypass is in place to free-up the Midtown)? Because of its awkward location, and potential for Nimbyism, it seems it's not that great for RT or RER. But a less frequent service like HSR may be something that could work.

The Midtown corridor to me is in kind of an awkward location. It passes kinda close to several important sites, but never really passes through any of them. If we're going to spend money upgrading any corridor to HSR or quasi-HSR standards that isn't already part of GO's RER upgrade package, I'd rather see the CN mainline between Georgetown and Burlington upgraded. I know that may sound kind of odd, but the potential of having Niagara/NY State HSR trains run diagonally through the Western GTHA and hit Pearson before coming into Union would be a big bonus. The idea that someone from Niagara or Hamilton could hop on an HSR train and end up right at Pearson could be a big plus.

Upgrading that corridor would also open up the potential of having another UPX-style train, only coming from Hamilton instead of Toronto (stops in Hamilton, Aldershot, North Burlington, Milton, Brampton, and Pearson). As a resident of the western GTHA, the transit options for getting to Pearson suck. Even the most logical non-rail connection (Long Branch to Pearson) doesn't really exist. It's either a combination of GO and multiple MiWay buses, or back-tracking all the way to Union and taking UPX.

 

[44 North]

Re: HSR and the Midtown corridor. You guys make some great points. There's no doubt Union is the logical local/regional/inter-regional hub, and that following Dupont through the city is not exactly optimal. I'm not really supportive of using the entire corridor for any kind of service (whether RT, RER, or HSR), but was more interested in seeing if there were any reasons it could be seen as optimal.

As it stands my guesses for its potential would start with the fact that it's a fairly sizable corridor that crosses the entire city. As well, it provides the opportunity for a high-speed cross-region route that bypasses downtown (which at least at one time was viewed as an objective, albeit using the northerly Finch hydro corridor). I can't discount the potential for this corridor to be freed-up in the distant future, considering the push for removing freight trains through the centre of the city will more than likely grow louder. However I don't think ceding the land to create a linear park would be in our best interest (although it's an attractive idea). Basically I think there could be potential for something, I just don't know what it is (tho the idea crs1026 brought up of a UPX spur or Summerhill-Pickering Int'l Express sounds reasonable).

But what really made me mention the Midtown is Union's projected capacity issues that were brought up in Metrolinx's Union 2031 report. This is only 15 years away, and it seems TO and the GTHA have a heck of a lot of unaddressed/unfunded/delayed priorities - with Union's capacity crunch seemingly ignored. Was there a follow-up to Union 2031, particularly the idea of creating a Lake Shore bypass tunnel? Did Metrolinx's studies of Union's capacity issues take into account the potential addition of HSR riders - and if not, could this influx be a reason to worry about HSR's future?

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

But what really made me mention the Midtown is Union's projected capacity issues that were brought up in Metrolinx's Union 2031 report. This is only 15 years away, and it seems TO and the GTHA have a heck of a lot of unaddressed/unfunded/delayed priorities - with Union's capacity crunch seemingly ignored. Was there a follow-up to Union 2031, particularly the idea of creating a Lake Shore bypass tunnel? Did Metrolinx's studies of Union's capacity issues take into account the potential addition of HSR riders - and if not, could this influx be a reason to worry about HSR's future?

Probably not. But what would be the relative burden of GO vs HSR? I don't have stats from VIA to point to, but I'm placing my bets that GO would be more than triple HSR's ridership, RER improvements considered.

Totally agree with you that it is inevitable that the Midtown corridor will eventually be taken over, and CP will be redirected outside the city. In light of this, I think it would be more effective to redirect Milton trains from Union, and keep them going straight along the Midtown corridor. As it stands now, that would be 30,000 passengers a weekday. There is ample evidence that there is pent up demand on the Milton line, so with considerable service improvements this would jump much higher. Providing connections at Dupont and Summerhill would not have to be elaborate either; provide a platform to stand on, Presto machines to tap on, and pathways to the subway.

This is in stark contrast to HSR, which is supposed to be a richer experience. Baggage check, pampered assistance, beautiful facilities and other amenities. Union could handle that if you relieve the pressure that GO imposes.

Not trying to shit all over your idea 44 North. I'd like to see an EA comprehensively examine it as an option, so we could put some more facts into this debate instead of gut feelings.

 

[crs1026]

In light of this, I think it would be more effective to redirect Milton trains from Union, and keep them going straight along the Midtown corridor.
(snip)
I'd like to see an EA comprehensively examine it as an option, so we could put some more facts into this debate instead of gut feelings.

I'm curious - did you select the Milton line because of some known attribute of its current ridership, or because it's the logistically easiest GO route to connect to North Toronto? Or just because it's the heaviest-used route and therefore the biggest numerical impact?

(painful side thought....if the CP freight line is removed, all that costly investment in the West Toronto tunnel and potentially the Davenport over/underpass becomes redundant, unless the North Toronto line does become a rail passenger corridor - *sigh*)

I wonder what data exists on where those 30,000 commuters are going to? How many currently transfer to the subway? If we put them on a southbound subway train at Dupont, have we changed the Relief line ridership picture?

My gut (and I totally agree, we need real data, not gut reaction) says that most of those 30,000 are headed for the very central downtown. Changing their terminus would worsen their commute and the north-south picture generally. I'm also speculating that the picture is no different for the Weston and Barrie routes, so they are no better candidates for diversion. Diverting the Richmond Hill along a rebuilt Leaside connection would avoid the costly flood-mitigation planned for the lower Don Valley, but again, current ridership favours the Union destination.

I can buy into an interleaved service where some proportion of those trains go across to North Toronto, but I suspect that a vast majority of current riders' reaction would be "leave my Union Station train alone".

But again, this is a gut reaction, and we need data.

- Paul

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

I'm curious - did you select the Milton line because of some known attribute of its current ridership, or because it's the logistically easiest GO route to connect to North Toronto? Or just because it's the heaviest-used route and therefore the biggest numerical impact?

I can buy into an interleaved service where some proportion of those trains go across to North Toronto, but I suspect that a vast majority of current riders' reaction would be "leave my Union Station train alone".

Mostly because it is logistically easier. But its heavy use is a side benefit.

Interleaving would be also wise to look at, I agree. It may discredit some of the "leave my train alone" sentiment (sounds like NIMBY-type whining...LMTA?).

 

[rbt]

I can buy into an interleaved service where some proportion of those trains go across to North Toronto, but I suspect that a vast majority of current riders' reaction would be "leave my Union Station train alone".

I have zero doubt that a fully grade separated and unused corridor will find a significant use of one type or another. Whether that is an express RER, a relocated interregional service (VIA), or a local service for Dupont/Dundas LRT is up for grabs.

There is space between Lake Shore RER and Highway 407 BRT for another East/West Express corridor if mode-share starts heading towards transit.

 

[ssiguy2]

Any high speed rail line shouldn't even be going to Kitchener or Pearson. The only time they were brought up was in the last provincial election when Wynne needed some votes. HSR was always only considered a WSR/LDN/TOR/OTT/MON/QC route because it was always the line that made the most sense.

The reality is that no one from the SW ever goes to Kitchener and if they do, a short 100km HSR line really wouldn't make a hoot of difference in travel times. As for the connection to Pearson, that really doesn't make much of a difference from people from the SW either. London Airport is already served by Air Canada, WestJet, and United as well as SunWing and Transat for sun destinations which adds to probably 90% of all flights. Toronto is a very expensive airport to fly out of and although flights are cheaper they wouldn't be when you add the price of your HSR ticket and Pearson's hefty airport improvement fees.

As for people in Kitchener going to Pearson, they will already have a more frequent and cheaper GO system to take advantage of. Again the difference in time between GO and HSR will be very small due to the short distance. HSR is only really effective for longer distances but Wynne has made it into a glorified commuter service.

On top of this Kitchener has no rail connections to anywhere as opposed to a once of twice daily stop at Aldershot which would get you to more populace Hamilton/Lakeshore as well as Niagara and further routes into the US.

 

[nfitz]

Any high speed rail line shouldn't even be going to Kitchener or Pearson. The only time they were brought up was in the last provincial election when Wynne needed some votes. HSR was always only considered a WSR/LDN/TOR/OTT/MON/QC route because it was always the line that made the most sense.

I don't get this. Your willing to eliminate service to a population of over half-a-million - on a route to the slightly smaller City of London, and the much smaller City of Windsor!?!

And you ignore that a straight line from Union Station to London goes straight through Waterloo Region (Cambridge I admit, not Kitchener). And the closest thing we already have to a straight railway line, is the one from Toronto to Kitchener?

The reality is that no one from the SW ever goes to Kitchener ...

Is reality really a factor here, after suggesting that you run straight through a larger city, to get to two smaller ones?

 

[TOareaFan]

I don't get this. Your willing to eliminate service to a population of over half-a-million - on a route to the slightly smaller City of London, and the much smaller City of Windsor!?!

And you ignore that a straight line from Union Station to London goes straight through Waterloo Region (Cambridge I admit, not Kitchener). And the closest thing we already have to a straight railway line, is the one from Toronto to Kitchener?

Is reality really a factor here, after suggesting that you run straight through a larger city, to get to two smaller ones?

That was my criticism of the KW route too

 

[nfitz]

One would assume that some services would stop in Brampton and Guelph - we see that on other similar routes around the world.

 

[TOareaFan]

One would assume that some services would stop in Brampton and Guelph - we see that on other similar routes around the world.

one would think....but the rushed out announcement/proposal by MoT at the time was adamant that they would not....and many people here thought I was a bit crazy for suggesting they should.

 

[nfitz]

one would think....but the rushed out announcement/proposal by MoT at the time was adamant that they would not....and many people here thought I was a bit crazy for suggesting they should.

They never said there wouldn't be local services as well. Look at HS1 in the UK. In addition to Paris-London trains, there's local HSR services - and even commuter trains on it!

 

[TOareaFan]

They never said there wouldn't be local services as well. Look at HS1 in the UK. In addition to Paris-London trains, there's local HSR services - and even commuter trains on it!

not trying to re-hash the whole thing but wasn't RER the local service and the HSR was just gonna be KW-Pearson-Union (and then as the election go closer I think London got thrown into the mix)....like I said, it's in the past (and I doubt unless the feds get on board it is in the future).