Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

[MisterF]

Any high speed rail line shouldn't even be going to Kitchener or Pearson. The only time they were brought up was in the last provincial election when Wynne needed some votes. HSR was always only considered a WSR/LDN/TOR/OTT/MON/QC route because it was always the line that made the most sense.

That's not true. Previous studies have recommended the route through Kitchener. It's only the 2011 study that didn't. It's an anomaly.

The reality is that no one from the SW ever goes to Kitchener and if they do, a short 100km HSR line really wouldn't make a hoot of difference in travel times. As for the connection to Pearson, that really doesn't make much of a difference from people from the SW either. London Airport is already served by Air Canada, WestJet, and United as well as SunWing and Transat for sun destinations which adds to probably 90% of all flights. Toronto is a very expensive airport to fly out of and although flights are cheaper they wouldn't be when you add the price of your HSR ticket and Pearson's hefty airport improvement fees.

Air service tends to suffer significantly with the introduction of HSR, sometimes to the point of being eliminated altogether. In some countries HSR replaces connecting flights from smaller cities like London to big airports like Pearson. Expensive or not, Pearson is by far the busiest airport in the country and draws passengers from all over southern Ontario. Including London and Kitchener.

As for people in Kitchener going to Pearson, they will already have a more frequent and cheaper GO system to take advantage of. Again the difference in time between GO and HSR will be very small due to the short distance. HSR is only really effective for longer distances but Wynne has made it into a glorified commuter service.

You could say this about any HSR system. People take the faster option in huge numbers despite slower, cheaper trains being available. As for commuting, HSR trains all over the world are used for commuting. It's a large portion of their daily ridership.

 

[ssiguy2]

2 stops between a 200km route takes the high speed out of high speed rail.

 

[44 North]

Not trying to shit all over your idea 44 North. I'd like to see an EA comprehensively examine it as an option, so we could put some more facts into this debate instead of gut feelings.

Haha, shitting on it or not that's quite alright. Perhaps I should've saved my post for the fantasy thread. Though I'm not trying to push any fantastical idea of bringing HSR to the North Toronto sub, but more interested in seeing discussions about it. Midtown and Richmond Hill I think have potential to be something much more, but it seems without proper EAs and real proposals few can say for sure what that 'something' is. And good point about the "richer experience" of HSR, which I didn't really consider. I was mostly imagining a bare and basic platform (which for such a service wouldn't be wise).

Diverting the Richmond Hill along a rebuilt Leaside connection would avoid the costly flood-mitigation planned for the lower Don Valley, but again, current ridership favours the Union destination.

Interesting. Or combine Milton with the RH line and send it through Midtown, like how SmartTrack is a combined Kitchener and Stouffville RER? Could be called SmartTrack2.0, or CleverTrack...

 

[mdrejhon]

2 stops between a 200km route takes the high speed out of high speed rail.

High speed trains run in express and semiexpress modes.

Although I'd love the high speed train to take the Lakeshore West route, so that the semiexpress high speed train can stop at Aldershot, I recognize the investments on the Kitchener corridor pretty much makes that the defacto high speed train route.

High speed train systems behave as commuter systems in Europe and Japan, and France workers uses their TGV system like we use our GO Train system. You tap, and wait for the next high speed train -- hop on. Sometimes you have standees on the high speed train, just like real commuter trains! Shinkansen standees are common in Japan during peak period -- they are high speed commuter trains.

Express high speed trains will bypass a lot of stations, but that doesn't mean semiexpress won't.

Also, it's not mutually exclusive -- it is also possible both the LSW and the Kitchener corridors will eventually be high speed rail in 50 years from now. Especially if the Empire corridor becomes HSR standard, and GO RER expands to Niagara, that would allow an Amtrak Acela Express to pull into Toronto Union. Maybe not within my lifetime, but it's certainly realistic "this century".

That said, the current spending of now, if HSR happens within a generation, is definitely going to put HSR on the Kitchener corridor first.

HSR would partially replace the 'express' GO trains, especially with the talk of $10 high speed train fares for commuters. With Kitchener-London-Toro

Don't forget Japanese Shinkansen are tap-and-wait system like GO -- hop-on-subway style HSR -- the commuter HSR coaches don't have assigned seating -- and you can very well be a Shinkansen standee, especially if you're using them as daily commuter trains. Yes, you can buy first class and assigned seating, but most users of these Japan systems just tap and wait.

The London-Kitchener-Toronto is a bedroom community high speed train, so if given Ontario funding, it would function as a de-facto high speed GO train.

Intercity high speed trains and commuter high speed trains aren't mutually exclusive, some double for both, and some are separate. The segment Ontario is funding is probably targeted to commuters. VIA HSR and GO HSR could share the route. And/or you can have a mix of express and semiexpress high speed trains too.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

High speed trains run in express and semiexpress modes.

Although I'd love the high speed train to take the Lakeshore West route, so that the semiexpress high speed train can stop at Aldershot, I recognize the investments on the Kitchener corridor pretty much makes that the defacto high speed train route.

....

Also, it's not mutually exclusive -- it is also possible both the LSW and the Kitchener corridors will eventually be high speed rail in 50 years from now. Especially if the Empire corridor becomes HSR standard, and GO RER expands to Niagara, that would allow an Amtrak Acela Express to pull into Toronto Union. Maybe not within my lifetime, but it's certainly realistic "this century".

That said, the spending of now, is definitely going to put HSR on the Kitchener corridor.

I agree, not mutually exclusive. There's a business case for both routes. I think what we are arguing about is which route should get priority?

Also, as I said earlier, I have some significant issues with the fact this is treated as something that would be one massive undertaking done within a decade. I believe it is something that needs to be designed with stageability, and gradual improvement over time.

This is what I would see in a phased approach:

• Phase I: Basic Repair
  • Upgrade VIA Corridor tracks to 90 mph in all existing corridors
  • Install barriers in dense urban residential areas and make any necessary regulatory changes for increase speeds in city centres
• Phase II: VIA Express and GO Local
  • VIA becomes express service, only serving Montreal, Ottawa, Kingston, Oshawa, Toronto, Aldershot, Niagara, Guelph, KW, London, Windsor
  • Former VIA stations between these cities are handed over to Metrolinx, basic upgrades are made to accomodate short GO trains (4-6 cars)
  • GO Transit begins train and supplement bus service in SW Ontario and Niagara; GO replaces VIA between London and Sarnia.
• Phase III: Critical Upgrades
  • Additional track is laid to accommodate increasing ridership on GO and VIA
  • Begin grade separating busiest crossings
  • Implement most beneficial new ROWs (e.g. CP from London to Woodstock, Brantford bypass)
• Phase IV: 200D
  • Complete grade separations, new ROWs to permit 200 km/h service
  • Acquire new VIA rolling stock that can be converted to electric or is hybrid
• Phase V: 300E
  • Full grade separation along entire corridor, new ROWs to permit 300 km/h service
    
  • Electrify entire corridor

 

[mdrejhon]

Good plan, yep, and along the right gist, although some phasing may be adjusted around (e.g. electrification may occur as part of Phase III in the most stop-dense corridors).

VIA becomes express service, only serving Montreal, Ottawa, Kingston, Oshawa, Toronto, Aldershot, Niagara, Guelph, KW, London, Windsor

All of the above are stop inside or near downtowns, and have good transit connections, except for Aldershot.

Aldershot was a Amtrak-style move of merging the Dundas station, Burlington station, and Hamilton station, to a new suburban station. But with all-day GO feeder service and/or LRT feeder service serving all these centres, the best-equipped station should be the HSR stop, and that is increasingly looking like West Harbour GO (fast forwarded 20 years) from an urban planner's point of view.

With West Harbour GO as a new contender on the Niagara route, the debate also comes up about whether to stop at Aldershot or stop at West Harbour, especially as the door is open for VIA to come back to that location, especially as ridership of this corridor grows. And if the corridor electrifies to Niagara while Empire Corridor electrifies, the suddenly opens the door for Acela Express to stop at Union. Given the big investments coming in the next 10-20 years in the Hamilton region (also see my article about Major GO construction in the Hamilton area -- 3 construction sites and also West Harbour's upcoming LRT connection) the crystal ball indicates HSR would presumably be better served doing the Hamilton stop rather than the Aldershot stop, in tomorrow's era, especially with a potential new CBD near the West Harbour area (the city owns several disused industrial piers and some massive West Harbour plans are already proposed over the next decade or two). This, and potential idea of an A-Line LRT being fully extended to the Hamilton airport (which itself, is likely a totally different beast in 20+ years from now, not just including its emerging airport employment lands).

Today, West Harbour GO is massively over engineered for its current 2 daily commuter stops, but that's because it opened a few years too early.

 

[nfitz]

2 stops between a 200km route takes the high speed out of high speed rail.

So when you are taking high speed rail in France, Germany, Korea, etc. ... that's not really high speed rail with many stations along a 200-km segment?

 

[Forgotten]

2 stops between a 200km route takes the high speed out of high speed rail.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

All of the above are stop inside or near downtowns, and have good transit connections, except for Aldershot.

...Given the big investments coming in the next 10-20 years in the Hamilton region (also see my article about Major GO construction in the Hamilton area -- 3 construction sites and also West Harbour's upcoming LRT connection) the crystal ball indicates HSR would presumably be better served doing the Hamilton stop rather than the Aldershot stop, in tomorrow's era, especially with a potential new CBD near the West Harbour area (the city owns several disused industrial piers and some massive West Harbour plans are already proposed over the next decade or two). This, and potential idea of an A-Line LRT being fully extended to the Hamilton airport (which itself, is likely a totally different beast in 20+ years from now, not just including its emerging airport employment lands).

This is why I would like to see a new station developed: "Delta". I may have floated it here before, but I see it as the main way to provide some key benefits:

• Direct connections between HSR and GO trains going in any direction
  • TOR-LDN
  • TOR-NIAG
  • NIAG-LDN
• Direct LRT connection on the Hamilton L-Line (along CP ROW, if they vacate, or York)
  • Replace GO service to Hamilton GO
  • Direct LRT connection between HSR in any direction, and downtown Hamilton

Here is a very crap diagram:

 

[ssiguy2]

Tired of being wrong, yes occasionally. Thankfully my good looks, charming personality, high IQ, great body, youthful spirit, refined manner, excellent social skills, and great modesty help ease the worst of the symptoms.

 

[BurlingtonJames]

This is why I would like to see a new station developed: "Delta". I may have floated it here before, but I see it as the main way to provide some key benefits:

• Direct connections between HSR and GO trains going in any direction
  • TOR-LDN
  • TOR-NIAG
  • NIAG-LDN
• Direct LRT connection on the Hamilton L-Line (along CP ROW, if they vacate, or York)
  • Replace GO service to Hamilton GO
  • Direct LRT connection between HSR in any direction, and downtown Hamilton

Somehow a direct NIAG-LDN service seems unlikely to me, and someone wishing to make that journey could transfer at Aldershot.

The trade off is whether to serve a dense neighbourhood near the city center at West Harbour or a station well-situated for connecting traffic and freeway access at Aldershot. Or both...

 

[mdrejhon]

Clever observation. I do observe that the Hamilton L-Line actually roughly follows this route that connects to a theoretical Delta station.

The L-Line LRT is in the proposed B-L-A-S-T plan (of which only segments of B-Line and A-Line are currently funded, but let's say, our LRT network gradually expanded over the decades). A potential showstopper (for now) I see is freight -- which may not allow this to happen. But let's say, that theoretically stopped being an issue (e.g. extra tracks, or freight themselves became highspeed freight trains, or diverted from one "leg" of the delta, etc) this is year 2050+ where we have HSR going in all three directions; it does begins to make sense.

One big consideration is some large HSR trains are near half a kilometer long (18 car Eurostar trains!). Depending on the length of the HSR trains, the Delta station might or might not be a good fit, but it does look like 300 meter trains would fit all 3 sidings without problems. In the worst case scenario it would be a 200 meter walk for transferring trains (a moving walkway can help...) if you disembarked the middle of the trains, but the station could install extra sidings that converged deeper into the delta, if the bending radius permitted such. Train speeds have to be very slow in this section anyway.

Suitability for HSR towards London is an issue. Lakeshore West (after Etobicoke) and Grimsby sub (West Harbour to St. Catharines) are both straight enough to be upgradeable to 300kph operation, but the Hamilton to London rail is quite circuitous and curvy. Assuming that is solved and all three directions were HSR, the Delta suddenly becomes a valuable interchange.

This is an interesting concept, though it possibly may not happen within my life -- but it would certainly solve the HSR interchange problem if all routes were HSR! Whether it's year 2030, year 2055 or year 2093 -- if all lines were HSR -- then Delta becomes a pretty damn good solution if we had rapid L-Line LRT and a York dropoff right underneath a mega station. This sounds "at least half a century away, minimum", though.

Are there any precedents in the world of a delta train station, HSR or otherwise?

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Install barriers in dense urban residential areas and make any necessary regulatory changes for increase speeds in city centres

Regulatory requirements don't limit passenger train speeds in city centers(freight is another story). Speed depends on the class of track which in turn depends on the track profile - horizontal/vertical curvature and type of rail used. Speeds are further limited by proximity to level crossing and sightlines for those crossings as well as the arrangement of tracks at station/interlocking(if any). Basically outside of relining the corridor and grade separation there's little that can initially be done to increase speeds in certain areas/city centers.

This is why I would like to see a new station developed: "Delta".

Problem with that is they simply refuse to build a station on a curve, nevermind in the middle of a wye.

 

[mdrejhon]

Problem with that is they simply refuse to build a station on a curve, nevermind in the middle of a wye.

There are already some high speed lines with a station on a curve. And many old stations that did get built on a curve.

But I never heard of one in the middle of three wye's (a delta).

I am curious about precedents.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

There are already some high speed lines with a station on a curve. And many old stations that did get built on a curve.

But it is GO/Metrolinx's current policy. And as an train operator I also agree with it.