Rail: Ontario-Quebec High Speed Rail Study

[AnarchoSocialist]

dowlingm and MisterF both make good points. Yes, you can find ways to help improve the efficiency of the current network. Be it headways, tackling common bottlenecks with extra track, or upgrading some of the more important lines. But as was also pointed out there is only so much you can do under the current systems and structure of rail travel in Ontario and Quebec. VIA (and GO or AMT) are still going to be subject to the freight companies, the lines are still limited in speed, there is no cooperation or integration between various agencies, the airlines still are likely to oppose large investments unless they can be involved, etc. The difference between what exists now and high speed rail lines and travel is night and day and there is no way that you can get from Point A to Point B without substantial and wide scale change.

One of the first things that VIA (or whatever federal or provincial agency will be responsible for the high speed lines) can do is to develop plans that would in essence lay out what and roughly where a high speed network would be. A good case in point of the benefit of this approach would be within Toronto. Any high speed line is likely to include a stop at Pearson. GO and other parties are also interested in a Union - Pearson service too. Instead of doing one without the other in mind, a plan should be developed that would allow for both to coexist. It eliminates redundancies by ensuring planning would only have to take place once and even if it was phased so that high speed service came 5 or 10 years after the fact, the line would be ready for it, or if upgrades are needed, it could be done in a way that would not disrupt the line and have been well planned out in advance. In addition, when a station at Pearson is constructed, by accounting for future high speed service it can eliminate the need to redesign or drastically alter station plans by being prepared for it.

Same is true for the Lakeshore line, particularly the eastern end. If high speed rail service were to built, how much of the Lakeshore mainline would it use and at what point would it want it to break off onto its own high speed line? This is another question that could have a lot of consequences on planning of upgrades to the Lakeshore line (which was mentioned in the Move Ontario plan). If a high speed line would start at Oshawa instead of Pickering that would mean ensuring that additional section of the line would have to be able to accommodate it. Again, service and lines between Toronto and Kitchener are another example where this kind of advanced planning would have a great deal of benefit. This way you can make upgrades and expansions that not only would have positive effects for the existing network, but would not be wasted money once a new high speed network was constructed.

 

[unimaginative2]

Absolutely, antiloop. The absolute bare minimum that should be done right now is protecting a corridor for a high speed line. This is especially important in rapidly-developing areas like Brampton, Kitchener-Waterloo, and Durham Region. The 407 was possible because that corridor was protected decades ago, before any of those areas were developed.

Real high-speed rail will never be possible in this country unless the rail regulators are willing to abandon their crazy buff strength and other requirements that make it impossible to run European trains on North American tracks. The reason that the TGV and other high speed trains are possible is their lightness. That's impossible in North America, where trains have to be built like tanks. It makes absolutely no sense. On the highway, virtually untrained drivers with absolutely no central control are allowed to operate tiny motorcycles next to 18-wheeler trucks. Meanwhile, on the rails, highly-trained operators following strict signals and dispatch must drive tanks around just in case of an incident. Can you imagine if every car on the road had to be built to withstand an impact with a truck? It would be impossible. Cars simply wouldn't exist. Such rules are equally absurd for trains. At the very least, exemptions should be put in place to allow TGV trains to use tracks around major metropolitan areas shared with freight trains. If the current rules are maintained, a high speed service would need new and completely separate tracks from one end to the other, including through city downtowns. At that point, you'd be better off going with a Transrapid-style maglev, since you'd completely lose the steel-wheel advantage of using existing networks in built-up areas.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

There is no doubt that this is something that has to be changed to make a system work. But I don't really see it as much of a problem. If Metrolinx is serious about its proposals for REX in the GTA, and to a much smaller degree Montreal and its plans for a Trudeau-Central Station shuttle, the issue will have to be addressed, and in fairly early stages of planning too ensure that the ideas are actually legal and possible. With the developments and changing attitudes towards regional rail, this seems like a problem that should just work itself out with time. And anything I have read about the issue makes it seem that changes are not likely to be a problem and an agency such as Metrolinx would be just the catalyst that is needed to set the process in motion.

One challenge that has to be overcome is getting 'someone' to really undertake the project of high speed rail. Obviously Metrolinx has no real reason to pursue it, even as it pertains to urban corridors. And VIA seems to be an agency more concerned about managing what it has rather than pushing for something else. So who does that leave? Since many of the issues that will first have to be dealt with, such as right-of-way protection, land acquisition, working with regional transit authorities such as AMT and Metrolinx are going to have to be done by the province, it is probably going to have to be provincial bodies that begin to undertake the project.

I am not sure if Charest and McGuinty will be the ones to do this, but putting together a high speed rail planning authority is probably the second most important challenge to be overcome (the first being funding) in terms of getting such a project underway. In terms of politics it is probably the best way to make the project acceptable to the public at large since the early stages do not require billions of dollars to be spent. With the work that could be produced over say a 5 years period much of the planning and design could be done so that what would be presented for public approval, and ultimately funding approval, would not just be 'ideas and dreams' but something much more concrete. The more detailed plans are when the project is proposed, the faster it can from public approval to construction and thus reduce the changes that politics ends up killing the project. And as I mentioned before an agency could ensure that in urban areas such as Montreal and Toronto high speed could be incorporated into current plans so that when the time comes to begin high speed service the provisions will already have been made that reduce or eliminate redundant construction projects and make developing the urban section of the network much easier.

How to influence and push for this idea being outside of the political system is another question altogether. I know I have no bloody clue as too what could possibly be effective at pushing this idea forward.

 

[Dan416]

How to influence and push for this idea being outside of the political system is another question altogether. I know I have no bloody clue as too what could possibly be effective at pushing this idea forward.

When in doubt, form a Facebook group!

 

[unimaginative2]

By far the most effective, and the only possible lobbyist for all of this is Bombardier. They're the biggest rail equipment manufacturer in the world. They're the only ones that could really push for it. They got close in the mid 90s with the TGV Canada project, but it just never went through. If they tried again (and with a real TGV, not some cheapo solution like the untested Jet Train), maybe it would work.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

I am a bit surprised they haven't tried again given that it seems an ideal time to float the idea again. Though there is that part of me that always thinks of the Lynx Proposal and what a scam it really was, something Blue 22 tried to emulate years later. Not that Bombardier throwing it's weight around has to be a bad thing, it could be very helpful, if done in the right way.

On another note, I actually like the sound of 'TGV Canada' for the name of the service. Don't know why exactly.

 

[khris]

Yes TGV Canada sounds really cool actually!

 

[MisterF]

Well the study that Charest and McGuinty announced in January was supposed to take one year so hopefully we'll hear something in early 2009. I'm sure the study will conclude the same thing as all the other studies that have been done - it'll take billions in government funding to get it done but once it's operating it should make a profit.

 

[unimaginative2]

I also think TGV Canada is a great name. TGV is a strong international brand. It's French, but is still instantly recognizable in English, so it meets the bilingualism requirement. Another brand name they were kicking around was "Lynx".

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

^Actually now I know why I like the name. Compared to any other name I have heard such as VIA Express, VIA Rapid, VIA-ICE, Lynx, BlackCat (this one I may have made up in my head but I seem to recall it used somewhere) TGV Canada is the one which really suits the big and bold nature of the project. I also like the idea of including Canada in the name. Even though it is a regional project, it is one that in the end people from elsewhere in the country are likely to take pride in.

 

[salvius]

I am a bit surprised they haven't tried again given that it seems an ideal time to float the idea again. Though there is that part of me that always thinks of the Lynx Proposal and what a scam it really was, something Blue 22 tried to emulate years later. Not that Bombardier throwing it's weight around has to be a bad thing, it could be very helpful, if done in the right way.

On another note, I actually like the sound of 'TGV Canada' for the name of the service. Don't know why exactly.

Indeed, now is THE time to strike the iron while it's hot. Sell the expensive gas angle, sell the environmentalism angle. Our rail system is an antiquated DISGRACE.

Of course, the current federal trolls don't seem to understand this, so we may have to wait a while longer. And there's no guarantee that Liberals truly understand that this would be an environmental coup. And, of course, since the project focuses on Ontario and Quebec, we can also cue to the sound of Western indignation. So, maybe not, after all.

 

[dowlingm]

The jettrain wouldn't be doing well at $130 oil and it couldn't be powered by the announced nukes for Darlington. A Velaro E or AGV on the other hand...

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Indeed, now is THE time to strike the iron while it's hot. Sell the expensive gas angle, sell the environmentalism angle. Our rail system is an antiquated DISGRACE.

Of course, the current federal trolls don't seem to understand this, so we may have to wait a while longer. And there's no guarantee that Liberals truly understand that this would be an environmental coup. And, of course, since the project focuses on Ontario and Quebec, we can also cue to the sound of Western indignation. So, maybe not, after all.

Could the technology be sold to westerners if a similar set up was done between Edmonton/Red Deer/Calagary?

 

[Dan416]

TGV Canada sounds cool

 

[dowlingm]

Could the technology be sold to westerners if a similar set up was done between Edmonton/Red Deer/Calagary?

It wouldn't surprise me if Edmonton-Calgary got built first, and Alberta's usual choice of LRT supplier (Siemens) makes a hella fast train. (Velaro, 350km/h)

In fact, looking at the Alberta High Speed Rail site, their picture is of a Siemens...

Even with a stop in Red Deer, 300km Edmonton-Calgary isn't going to go much over an hour if the alignment was built right. It's right in the high-speed rail sweet spot.