News   Nov 28, 2024
Wallace Emerson Community Centre Growing Beside Galleria on the Park
 306     0 
News   Nov 28, 2024
27-Storey Tower on Queen West Proposed North of Future King-Liberty GO
 724     2 
News   Nov 28, 2024
Drone Flights Capture Sub-Grade Construction at Cielo Condos
 650     0 

Premier Doug Ford's Ontario

steveintoronto said:
Oh Lordy....there's an argument to made for Prop Rep. This isn't it.
Click to expand...

It's the foremost argument to be made for it: fairness and a more realistic representation of the citizenry's will with the inability of ideological minorities to attain absolute legislative power.

What? A government that has absolute legislative power with a minority of votes cast is not a minority rule government? Is that term forever tainted by its association with apartheid South Africa and can only be used as a signifier of racial minority rule? I don't understand the complication here.
 
MTown said:
It's the foremost argument to be made for it: fairness and a more realistic representation of the citizenry's will with the inability of ideological minorities to attain absolute legislative power.

What? A government that has absolute legislative power with a minority of votes cast is not a minority rule government? Is that term forever tainted by its association with apartheid South Africa and can only be used as a signifier of racial minority rule? I don't understand the complication here.
Click to expand...

Solace, MTown, :)

The CAQ said last spring, and recommitted today that they will implement PR in Quebec. (I'll believe it when I see it, but I'm hopeful)
 
MTown said:
So, no confirmation yet if they are going to be doing away with the increase to paid holiday time?

What a bunch a crap....all while claiming to be sticking up for workers and businesses. My balls.

The smartest businesses already give their workers enough time off and decent pay, without regulatory imposition. These goons are in it to protect the greedy.

Holding minimum wage at $14 but promising undefined potential future tax breaks for these poor people whilst scrapping the universal income project. Yeah, ok, let me just keep eating KD while you guys figure this shit out.

That's not standing up for the taxpayer. That's making the taxpayer's life harder. Unless Ford et al think poor workers don't pay taxes. Is that it?

And where's this particular taxpayer's slice of fairness? When will wealthier people pay their fair share? When will their unneeded entitlements and tax breaks be eliminated?
What, we're going to pick on poor workers while leaving the middle class to pay for everyone else's perks and do nothing about the wealthy getting wealthier ON OUR BACKS?

This government's as bad a joke as the last one we had.
Click to expand...

I, like many here, don't use my real name.

Given my work with government, I very rarely publish anything explicitly political under my own name, though I certainly do speak w/friends about such things.

This is the second time this government has caused me to speak openly against its plans, explicit or implied.

For me to in any way imperil my relationship w/government you know I must be deeply offended by the proposed action.

To roll back such modest crumbs for those in entry-level or near entry-level jobs is hardly reasonable.

Hell, its hardly reasonable that only 2 paid personal days were required, and three weeks of vacation after 5 years.

Saskatchewan has had 3 weeks minimum (from year one) for decades. The notion that the standards imposed are arduous just doesn't wash, at all.
 
Northern Light said:
Solace, MTown, :)

The CAQ said last spring, and recommitted today that they will implement PR in Quebec. (I'll believe it when I see it, but I'm hopeful)
Click to expand...

That's dope. I haven't heard them talk of this, but it seems like they might just be what that place needed after half a century of PQ nonsense and Liberal corruption.

What a breath of fresh air! Maybe I'll move to MTL after my debts are paid. Housing's cheaper, my French is alright, and that town's pretty cool....and I'll finally get a vote!
 
MTown said:
That's dope. I haven't heard them talk of this, but it seems like they might just be what that place needed after half a century of PQ nonsense and Liberal corruption.

What a breath of fresh air! Maybe I'll move to MTL after my debts are paid. Housing's cheaper, my French is alright, and that town's pretty cool....and I'll finally get a vote!
Click to expand...

https://globalnews.ca/news/4198672/opposition-leaders-quebec-electoral-reform/

From an article about Legault's first presser:

Despite benefiting from the province's first-past-the-post system, Legault said he would honour a pledge to introduce legislation that would bring proportional representation to the province in the coming year.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/francois-legault-coalition-avenir-quebec-1.4846838
 
Northern Light said:
The notion that the standards imposed are arduous just doesn't wash, at all.
Click to expand...

No, it really doesn't. I work in a small business and our pay and free time policies are well above and beyond this measly bottom-rung crap and we're fine. In fact, I'm testament to the fact that paying people well and giving them enough free time is very good for the economy! (Though, to be fair, some of that has rather been good for economies other than ours, if you know what I mean).

Chintzing poor people to better the lot of the wealthy is really poor form and is counterproductive if the goal is to better the economic well-being of the population. It obviously isn't the goal here. I'm not sure what is. Seems like it may be the miniscule betterment of profits (if that) for some businesses and their owners.

I, personally, as someone who works for a small business and is somewhat involved in its accounting, don't see the issue.

It's a massive fraud, perpetrated on the working classes, as far as I can tell.
 
Northern Light said:
https://globalnews.ca/news/4198672/opposition-leaders-quebec-electoral-reform/

From an article about Legault's first presser:

Despite benefiting from the province's first-past-the-post system, Legault said he would honour a pledge to introduce legislation that would bring proportional representation to the province in the coming year.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/francois-legault-coalition-avenir-quebec-1.4846838
Click to expand...

*nods head approvingly with that stuuuupid look on the ol' mug*

Nice one. Air Transat's kinda alright too, I guess.
 
MTown said:
It's the foremost argument to be made for it: fairness and a more realistic representation of the citizenry's will with the inability of ideological minorities to attain absolute legislative power.

What? A government that has absolute legislative power with a minority of votes cast is not a minority rule government? Is that term forever tainted by its association with apartheid South Africa and can only be used as a signifier of racial minority rule? I don't understand the complication here.
Click to expand...
You can argue with the language all you like. Here's the reality:
A majority government is a government formed by a governing party that has an absolute majority of seats in the legislature or parliament in a parliamentary system. This is as opposed to a minority government, where the largest party in a legislature only has a plurality of seats.
Majority government - Wikipedia
Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_government

Stop being so pedantic. I also favour Prop-Rep, but stomping my feet and telling people 'they don't speak good' is offensive, both to me and the way to change these things. Most of us got over that in high-school, if not sooner.
 
MTown said:
Of course. I didn't at all laugh when the CBC had a screen up that said 38% of votes and Majority Government side-by-side.

Shit man, I almost failed advanced algebra and geometry in Grade 12, but I made it that far at least. I think I know what a majority of voters looks like.
Click to expand...
Why was this not an issue when Wynne won a majority with <38% of the vote.

But now it's a problem when the CAQ get the majority or the PC's with their >40% vote.
 
BurlOak said:
Why was this not an issue when Wynne won a majority with <38% of the vote.

But now it's a problem when the CAQ get the majority or the PC's with their >40% vote.
Click to expand...
It's a very valid question. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting though, as @Northern Light points out, as per the pledge for Prop Rep. I'll Google on that later, as Prop Rep can manifest in many different ways.

I used to favour FPTP, but it rapidly loses its advantages as we move away from two party, even three party systems.
An unusual alliance of political rivals spoke out at the National Assembly on Wednesday.

Opposition parties told reporters that if elected, they would change the way Quebecers vote to a proportional representation system from the current first-past-the-post elections.

“Everyone wins when democracy is strengthened,” said Quebec Solidaire spokesperson Gabriel Nadeau Dubois.

Leaders from the Coalition Avenir Quebec (CAQ), Parti-Quebecois (PQ), Quebec Solidaire (QS) and Green Party of Quebec vow that within the first year of their mandate, electoral reform will be on the table. [...]
Click to expand...
https://globalnews.ca/news/4198672/opposition-leaders-quebec-electoral-reform/
 
steveintoronto said:
You can argue with the language all you like. Here's the reality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_government

Stop being so pedantic. I also favour Prop-Rep, but stomping my feet and telling people 'they don't speak good' is offensive, both to me and the way to change these things. Most of us got over that in high-school, if not sooner.
Click to expand...

Settle down. I know what a majority government is and no one implied any such thing as "you no speak good". I'm referring to our majority governments, in fact, being rule-by-the-minority governments. That's what they are. I refer to them as such. What's the issue?

BurlOak said:
Why was this not an issue when Wynne won a majority with <38% of the vote.

But now it's a problem when the CAQ get the majority or the PC's with their >40% vote.
Click to expand...

No, it's always been a problem. You've obviously missed every single post I have made on the topic. Summary: ever since I was in my late teens, I saw the absurdity and basic unfairness of our electoral system and saw it as the fraud that it is. This isn't anything new. Nice shitty deflection. Especially if you think that I appreciated the Wynne government's minority rule government. (Which is a whole other mass of posts you must have missed).
 
I used to in favour of abandoning the FPTP, but since then I realize the genius of our current system. It still has the ability to produce minority governments when opinion is split. But it skews so that a as a party begin to get more support - they are rewarded with a minority. I we look at some Canadian minorities, often governments are too worried about the immediate term because have no ability to plan beyond the next confidence vote. With a majority, they have some time to do things, and are also fully accountable. The Trudeau 1972-74 era found great uncontrolled spending. As did the Liberals in 2011-14. Harper got Canada back to balance - but Wynne was still woefully in debt to keep the minority alive by satisfying their partner.
 
FPTP is not all bad. I think it is the greatest system you could have in newly emerged and developing democracies for growing political parties tied to ideas rather than identities.

But (despite the recent actions of Doug Ford) I would like to think that Canada is a mature and stable democracy. We can handle the move to a proportional or majoritarian system, and I strongly believe it would lead to electoral results that better reflect the values of the electorate.
 
Where FPTP loses relevance and meaning is when there's more than two or three parties. If it becomes typical that no one party can attain a majority of seats, then instead of stumbling from one crisis to the next in a minority government, more can be accomplished with Prop-Rep. The devil, as always, is in the details of which Prop-Rep model to choose.

And for those purists, the faults of FPTP show up at the riding level. Does the elected riding rep vouch proportionally in the House or Assembly? Of course not, you elect him/her to represent the greatest number of voters who cast their vote.

Prop-Rep itself must become FPTP at some level, unless you have direct democracy like Switzerland, where most contentious issues are put to a plebiscite. But Switzerland is one of only a few nations where the responsibility of direct participation is ingrained in the society. It would never work in our fractured society, or in many.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top