nfitz
Superstar
I don't think Quebec or Newfoundland today is any more secular than Ontario.
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Planned School Closures by the TDSB
- Thread starter Johnny Au
- Start date
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I don't know about that - I think the attachment to Catholic education is quite strong in some VisMin quarters here in Ontario.
AoD
nfitz
Superstar
If I knew what VisMin was I'd comment - but I'm not really into Roman Catholicism.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Visible Minorities, though on second thought, ethnic communities might be a more accurate term.
AoD
Tewder
Senior Member
... and those in a faith-based catholic system are?
I'm just not sure i understand your logic here, it's like saying 'I used to agree with women having the vote, but i have less faith in the electorate now so I don't agree anymore'. Why would a better run unethical system be preferable to a flawed ethical one? Fix the ethical one!!
Tory's proposal was a political miscalculation, and we know the disastrous outcome. He didn't anticipate that most people understood what a behemoth of cost his proposal would be (not to mention a nightmare of cultural segregation), that the only real option for reform is to abolish the catholic school board, that if you can't fund them all you shouldn't fund any... as for constitutionality, yes technically it is protected as a 'privilege'. It is an archaic protection, however, and likely in violation of the charter. Other provinces have overridden it and it is time for Ontario to do so too.
So you are advocating for what would essentially be a funded two-tiered education system? If you want private school why not pay for it? Why do you feel that tax-payers owe you something better than what they themselves might have access to? Look, I understand that it takes a lot of integrity to renounce one's unearned privileges in society but in the end isn't this the kind of society you'd rather live and raise children in?? It would be for me.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I don't think a voucher based system is necessarily two-tiers. Diversity in school typology need not translate into private funding. Besides, schools in the public system aren't exactly equal, given the rising importance of fundraising basically meant that some schools are more deprived financially than others.
AoD
DarnDirtyApe
Active Member
Indeed, we already have a two-tiered system in that people can buy their way (through a house purchase) into a school district full of other motivated parents. It's not necessarily tied to income (more like the parent's attitudes towards the importance of education) but money does play a big part. That's one of the reasons that many schools in low income areas are under capacity - parents with children, who naturally want their best for their own children, choose not to live within the catchment area of bad schools.
On trying to fix the public system: I'm a realist and prefer not to do things akin to banging my head against the wall.
Eug
Senior Member
What do you mean by quasi-private tier? I'm asking because for example my nephew went to a catholic high school in Ontario and didn't pay a cent.
He didn't take any religion classes either. They tried to make him, but he refused, and his mother threatened to take it up with the province, so the school backed down because legally they can't actually force anyone to take religion classes.
I'd like to think most people were against it mainly because people want a universal system that puts everyone (in theory) on equal ground.
Just FYI, the TSDB high school for my neighbourhood has mandatory school uniforms.
junior43
Active Member
Tewder
Senior Member
Johnny Au
Senior Member
Vaughan Road Academy is a TDSB high school (and is on the school closure list) that has mandatory uniforms. I am a former student of that school.
By the way, the public (secular) school board and the public Catholic school board should merge into a single public secular school board, and all faith-based schools (regardless of faith) should be privately funded.
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Eug
Senior Member
Yes, but others have mentioned it's not the only one.
christiesplits
Senior Member
East York Collegiate has had uniforms for almost a decade, and Danforth CI is considering it.
wopchop
Building Toronto
It isn't just in "VisMin quarters". I'm a non-practicing Catholic, went to Catholic high school & elementary. My family and in-laws are all Catholic of the European variety. A lot of my friends and people that I know are Catholic. I think that you would be surprised by how much support there actually is among holiday Catholics for the Catholic school board. Many perceive it to be a better school board than the public one, based on hearsay and anecdotal evidence of course, but that perception does exist (especially among catholic boomers) and it translates into support and votes.
The argument that amending the constitution is a constraint on this issue is nonsense. Since it only affects Ontario, assent is only required from the Federal government and Ontario itself. The Feds would be in no position to deny such an amendment, as they already set a precedent when they did the exact same thing for Quebec in 1997. But I don't expect anything to change, as there is no appetite for it among the electorate. I do expect that sometime in the future a case will go to the Superior Court based on funding another faith-based school.
ETA
On the subject of non-catholics attending catholic school, I grew up with non-catholics who went to both catholic elementary and high school. It is a lot easier to enroll as a non-catholic at a catholic high school, then it is to enroll at a catholic elementary school. But this is slowly changing, as I think now that approximately half of the catholic elementary boards in the province will admit non-catholics without making you jump through hoops (ie. prove that at least one parent or grandparent was catholic). On the flip side, no board in the province can stop you from enrolling in a catholic high school for being non-catholic, and confirmed in court as of last year, no catholic high school board can compel you to attend liturgy or take religious classes.
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