Planned School Closures by the TDSB

[nfitz]

For better or worse, the Catholic system does offer an escape route for a (fairly broad) segment of the population.

In Quebec, it was the increasing popularity of the French Protestant schools over the badly managed French Catholic school board, mostly being attended by Catholics, that lead to the province amending the Canadian constitution and eliminating religious education.

 

[animatronic]

In a perfect world we would only need one system, but the TCDSB offers an alternative for those who are unhappy with the TDSB or the public (secular) curriculum. In my own neighbourhood, the Catholic school has higher test scores and is seen as a "better" school by those who are eligible to send their kids there.

Presumably these new schools are in places where a surplus TDSB school isn't available...

That keeps getting raised as the only really valid reason for two systems.... Except you get the same effect from changing schools in the same system.

 

[Johnny Au]

When Briar Hill Public School got closed down and demolished, nearby Sts. Cosmas and Damian Catholic School had an annex built (and had portables for many years when the annex was under construction). That neighbourhood is increasingly Filipino (and that ethnic group is mainly Catholic, just like the Philippines), and has quite a large number of Italians and Portuguese (both of whom are mainly Catholic as well). Apparently, the number of non-Catholic children in that neighbourhood dropped significantly (and are sent to West Prep, JR Wilcox, and Fairbank (the one that is formerly a middle school)).

No wonder why the TCDSB is looking to expand while the TDSB is looking to contract.

 

[Palma]

The backlash against Tory was because he wanted to create multiple separate school systems similar to the catholic one. It was an unmitigated disaster. The question of abolishing the separate system outright has not been tabled by anyone, to my knowledge. Any politician who did would be a hero. Who would have an issue aside from some catholics? Even they can't deny the disparity and waste, with a straight face at least.

Its not a waste as one can direct their property tax dollars towards the public school or catholic

 

[animatronic]

Its not a waste as one can direct their property tax dollars towards the public school or catholic

That's not how it works. Funding is determined by butts in seats, not by your voting card declaration.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

That keeps getting raised as the only really valid reason for two systems.... Except you get the same effect from changing schools in the same system.

Except that all public schools use the same curriculum, same lackluster methods for dealing with problem kids, same disruptive or unsupportive parents... while the catholic system has come a long way from the bad old days of corporal punishment, it does still take a much more strict approach to student behaviour. Talk to any TDSB teacher working in a tough school and you will start to understand why people send their kids to catholic schools.

It's just another way that motivated parents try to segment their kids to get ahead - same as moving into the catchment area for good schools, French immersion, etc.

 

[Tewder]

Its not a waste as one can direct their property tax dollars towards the public school or catholic

The 'not wasteful' argument is false for two reasons:

1. Two systems will always be more wasteful than one, the fact that the TDSB is closing infrastructure while the TDCSB is spending to build more - and often in the same jurisdiction - is a fairly obvious example.

2.:

All Ontarians pay for Catholic separate schools

All Ontarians bear the same tax burden, based on their income, not their faith, but only those of the Catholic faith are guaranteed a publicly funded school choice. School support designations on municipal property assessments have no effect on total school board funding, which is determined solely by enrolment and other documented needs.

http://www.oneschoolsystem.org/fast-facts.html

Except that all public schools use the same curriculum, same lackluster methods for dealing with problem kids, same disruptive or unsupportive parents... while the catholic system has come a long way from the bad old days of corporal punishment, it does still take a much more strict approach to student behaviour. Talk to any TDSB teacher working in a tough school and you will start to understand why people send their kids to catholic schools.

It's just another way that motivated parents try to segment their kids to get ahead - same as moving into the catchment area for good schools, French immersion, etc.

You are exaggerating just how much of a phenomenon this is. According to the link that follows, non-catholic enrolment in the Ottawa school board is estimated at only 6%, only 7% in the Hamilton school board (http://www.oneschoolsystem.org/fast-facts.html), as examples. Not to mention that at the elementary level the catholic school board can refuse admittance to non-catholics, which skews these numbers drastically to the high school level.

As for perceived issues with the public system why not address them? Why not use precious finite resources and funding to improve one streamlined system that is fair to all, a system which likely suffers now due to the diverting off of funds, resources, teachers etc into a separate 'pseudo-private'/elitist and faith-based system?... and one that is unconstitutional i might add, not that it seems to concern too many Ontarians.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Agree with Tewder - and besides, the original rationale for having a separate, public funded Catholic system don't really stands up the realities of the 21st century - it has become a quasi-private tier of education. Perhaps what we need is education reform - centralizing public funding while devolving pedagogical approaches (within provincially set bounds) to individual schools (or better yet cluster of schools).

AoD

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

I used to agree with you on the benefits of a single system, but I have less faith in the people in charge now. Those in the Ministry of Education and TDSB aren't exactly big on allowing different streams of thought within the public system. I would support a charter/voucher system as long as it excluded faith-based schools, but that isn't a popular view either.

According to the Toronto 2011 survey, 28% of residents identify as Catholic. Additionally, as you allude the TCDSB is not very strict about admittance: officially, in order for a child to be admitted to the system either that child or one parent must be baptised Catholic OR have entered into a program to become Catholic. Unofficially, staff will turn a blind eye if capacity is available. When you combine this with the fact people within the same ethnic group have a tendency to cluster together, there are parts of the city where a large proportion of the population are eligible for admittance to the TCDSB.

Generally speaking, the current system is explicitly constitutional - the British North America act provided for funding of a Roman Catholic school system up to Grade 10, and the 1982 constitution has the same protection. Bill Davis extended that to the end of high school, which is basically all that could be revoked without an amendment to the constitution (and good luck with that one). That's why John Tory proposed funding for all faith-based schools - because Ontario is constitutionally prohibited from revoking funding for Catholic schools.

On a side note, it was only in 1988 that courts ruled against (The Lord's) prayer in public schools. I used to say the Lord's Prayer every day in elementary school in the mid-1980's. In the scheme of things, it hasn't been that long since the public system really was the "protestant system". We've come a long way since then, but are laws are not so easy to change.

 

[Tewder]

Agree with Tewder - and besides, the original rationale for having a separate, public funded Catholic system don't really stands up the realities of the 21st century - it has become a quasi-private tier of education. Perhaps what we need is education reform - centralizing public funding while devolving pedagogical approaches (without provincially set bounds) to individual schools (or better yet cluster of schools).

AoD

Yes, and they abolished it in Quebec where over 80% of the population is catholic! Now that is integrity!

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Yes, and they abolished it in Quebec where over 80% of the population is catholic! Now that is integrity!

A constitutional amendment was required to make it happen, and currently no politician in Ontario will touch this issue with a ten foot pole. Support for Catholic schools (and opposition to other religious schools) runs very deep!

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yes, and they abolished it in Quebec where over 80% of the population is catholic! Now that is integrity!

Well, they have a different rationale for it I'd imagine (Quiet Revolution and all). We don't have anything that remotely dramatic in Ontario that would empower such a course of action.

In any case, the so called strictness of the Catholic system is, from my perspective, an utter myth beyond the superficial conformity required of the students (i.e. school uniforms). Certainly, the behaviour of students outside the school environment suggests to me that approach is ineffective.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

A constitutional amendment was required to make it happen, and currently no politician in Ontario will touch this issue with a ten foot pole. Support for Catholic schools (and opposition to other religious schools) runs very deep!

Ultimately, it needs a court challenge. The 1867 constitution protected existing separate school boards, which as far as I can tell, was Grade 1 to 8. No funding then for JK, SK, or 9-12.

Presumably then, any religion could apply for funding for high school or kindergarten, and if the province says no, they could launch a court case that they were not being funded on the basis of religion, when the province does voluntary fund Catholic kindergarten and high school.

Well, they have a different rationale for it I'd imagine (Quiet Revolution and all). We don't have anything that remotely dramatic in Ontario that would empower such a course of action.

What's it got to do with the Quiet Revolution? It happened simply because the Protestant School Board was having huge increases in enrolment, because the Catholic French school board was of very poor quality. It was simply a question of $.

The Quiet Revolution was being taught in history class long before the religious school boards were disbanded!

 

[animatronic]

A constitutional amendment was required to make it happen, and currently no politician in Ontario will touch this issue with a ten foot pole. Support for Catholic schools (and opposition to other religious schools) runs very deep!

Procedurally it is very simple - the Province of Ontario just needs to pass a bill requesting that the Feds amend the CA to remove the Catholic education clause. There is precedent in NL that this should be backed by a referendum but otherwise it's a relatively straightforward process. Because it only affects Ontario you don't need any other provinces to approve, and the feds are convention-bound to accept it. Besides, the Catholic schools clause was just a sop to line up French support for Confederation, and to protect minorities in an era when the Irish couldn't get a non-manual labour job in Toronto - neither of which are relevant today.

Any suggestions that the separate system (with an identical curriculum) is superior to public schools is anecdotal, and if not it's certainly not due to the religious aspects. Plus, many of us are sick of seeing our taxes used to fund state-sanctioned homophobia and institutional sexism.

What we're really saying is that the PCPO and OLP are a bunch of cowards who would rather leave well enough alone than risk seats by getting serious about saving money and treating everyone equally.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

What's it got to do with the Quiet Revolution? It happened simply because the Protestant School Board was having huge increases in enrolment, because the Catholic French school board was of very poor quality. It was simply a question of $.

The Quiet Revolution was being taught in history class long before the religious school boards were disbanded!

Without the secularization of Quebec society due to QR, do you really think that the abolition would have happened? We don't have anything here in Ontario that would see the Catholic boards as fundamentally disposable.

AoD