Planned School Closures by the TDSB

[AlbertHWagstaff]

In the late 70s, "declining enrolment" was the screaming headline regarding Toronto schools. The baby boom had finished high school and there was talk of closing and/or amalgamating schools. But then the boomer echo kids started showing up and the issue took care of itself. I don't recall if any schools were actually closed, but enrolment was on the way up again. The neighbourhood where I grew up had hardly any young children by the time I finished high school and went to university, but soon afterwards the area started turning over and young familiies with children started appearing. It might be difficult to predict where and how enrolment patterns will change, but the demographics of an area should absolutely be taken into consideration. Areas with long-term residents of retirement age (as rbt noted above) may have low enrolment now but will likely turn over soon as they sell and move out.We're not likely to see the numbers as in 1971, but there is always an ebb and flow.

 

[nfitz]

Read here: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...-discussion-about-surplus-schools-keenan.html

It says that there were around 270,000 students at its peak in 1971, as compared with approximately 170,000 students today.

It might well say that - but it's clearly erroneous.

You hadn't stated you were just talking about the TDSB students. But still, the implication is that only about 40% of students are in the public system? Where are the other 240,000 students? The Christian separate school board is about 100,000. So your telling me that 140,000 students are in the French school boards, private schools, and home schooling?

I don't believe. Clearly the number of 170,000 students even for just the TDSB you are reporting is very wrong!

Secondly, the baby boom peak was in the 1960s and mid-1970s. A lot of the excess capacity was dealt with decades ago. The 2011 population of age 5-19 might be 410,000, but the 1991 population of age 5-19 was only 372,000. That doesn't create a lot of excess capacity city-wide.

This is more a neighbourhood issue than a city-wide issue, with local changes in demographics. And with the changes in recent years of just part-time SK to fulltime JK and SK, then that's almost a 30% pressure on the space in every K-6 school (perhaps more, given the smaller class sizes and larger rooms in Kindergarten compared to Grade 6). There's also been significant pressure from lower class sizes - I believe the limit was 32 when I was in elementary school, where it's now capped at 23 I believe.

If the province seriously wants to deal with the issue, they should combine the 4 current school boards into 1 or 2.

 

[Uncle Teddy]

That still doesn't deal with the fact that there are many schools half full regardless of how many school boards there are.

 

[nfitz]

That still doesn't deal with the fact that there are many schools half full regardless of how many school boards there are.

There's a few schools somewhat empty. When I started to poke through the ones in my area on the TDSB list, the "empty" space was mostly in use for provincially-mandated daycare, parenting centres, etc. And in the most extreme examples, the neighbouring schools were overflowing, so no easy solution without investing in new facilities.

There's no magic solution.

In addition, school boards can't just sell schools to developers. There's a long list of boards and governments and agencies that they have to offer the facility to at a prescribed price of about $17,000 per elementary student space and $25,000 per secondary student space - with no corrections for real estate values in Toronto compared to, say, Kenora. This is why disposing of excess land in Toronto is more profitable than disposing of excess buildings.

 

[Johnny Au]

Read here: http://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/...n-tdsb-hit-list-in-poorer-neighbourhoods.html

A disproportionate number of schools on the closure list are in the former city of York.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

There's a few schools somewhat empty. When I started to poke through the ones in my area on the TDSB list, the "empty" space was mostly in use for provincially-mandated daycare, parenting centres, etc. And in the most extreme examples, the neighbouring schools were overflowing, so no easy solution without investing in new facilities.

There's no magic solution.

In addition, school boards can't just sell schools to developers. There's a long list of boards and governments and agencies that they have to offer the facility to at a prescribed price of about $17,000 per elementary student space and $25,000 per secondary student space - with no corrections for real estate values in Toronto compared to, say, Kenora. This is why disposing of excess land in Toronto is more profitable than disposing of excess buildings.

Why do they need to offer it to other boards/agencies? If the Ministry of Transport closes an office, does the same rule apply?

 

[nfitz]

Why do they need to offer it to other boards/agencies?

Ontario Regulation 444/98 under the Ontario Education Act - "Disposition of Surplus Real Property".

 

[Tewder]

How is it that the Catholic school board is planning to build new schools while the TDSCB is looking to close them? Can anybody explain to me in what universe this makes any sense whatsoever? Who is funding this??

From their web site:

Toronto Catholic District School Board
To Build Six New Schools

Toronto Catholic District School Board is pleased to announce the approval of the construction of six new schools. This is over and above the 16 school additions that were approved earlier this year.

“This is an exciting time of growth for our school board,†says TCDSB Chair Ann Andrachuk. “In recent years we have had to make some difficult decisions with respect to school closures, and now we are finally able to see the rewards. With all these new building projects, we will be able to provide better facilities for thousands of students in our Catholic schools.â€

The new facilities will be:
Morningside Heights--467 pupil places
Botham Road (St. Edward)—421 pupil places
St. Ambrose—398 pupil places
St. Conrad—582 pupil places
St. Nicholas—444 pupil places
Yvonne site (St. Gerard Majella and St. Phillip Neri)—522 pupil places

“This is a very ambitious capital program, which takes into consideration the programming needs for our students, including the provision for dedicated spaces for the Full-Day Early Learning Program,†says Bruce Rodrigues, Director of Education.

http://www.tcdsb.org/Board/PlanningandFacilities/Pages/Capital-Program--New-Schools.aspx

 

[animatronic]

Think of how many more schools we could close while optimizing locations if we stopped funding two public school boards.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

In a perfect world we would only need one system, but the TCDSB offers an alternative for those who are unhappy with the TDSB or the public (secular) curriculum. In my own neighbourhood, the Catholic school has higher test scores and is seen as a "better" school by those who are eligible to send their kids there.

Presumably these new schools are in places where a surplus TDSB school isn't available...

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

In a perfect world we would only need one system, but the TCDSB offers an alternative for those who are unhappy with the TDSB or the public (secular) curriculum. In my own neighbourhood, the Catholic school has higher test scores and is seen as a "better" school by those who are eligible to send their kids there.

Presumably these new schools are in places where a surplus TDSB school isn't available...

Unless, of course, you are unhappy with the 'secular' curriculum and, you know, are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Protestant.

 

[Tewder]

In a perfect world we would only need one system, but the TCDSB offers an alternative for those who are unhappy with the TDSB or the public (secular) curriculum. In my own neighbourhood, the Catholic school has higher test scores and is seen as a "better" school by those who are eligible to send their kids there.

Presumably these new schools are in places where a surplus TDSB school isn't available...

I wouldn't presume that at all.

Those who want an alternative to the public school system should pay for it themselves, and pay for their own infrastructure. It's called private school. In the meantime if there are concerns and issues with the standards within the public school system we should be addressing it.

Isn't it time to end the separate school system? Can we not finally judge it as the unconstitutional waste of taxpayer money it is and more on? No offence to catholics implied. Peace.

 

[nfitz]

Unless, of course, you are unhappy with the 'secular' curriculum and, you know, are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Protestant.

Exactly. How Ontario persists with such extreme prejudice by choosing to fund the religious educations of some Christians but not other Christians and other religions is beyond me.

How could anyone ever support such prejudice in this day and age?

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

Unless, of course, you are unhappy with the 'secular' curriculum and, you know, are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or Protestant.

Never said it was a good thing! For better or worse, the Catholic system does offer an escape route for a (fairly broad) segment of the population.

Given what happened to John Tory, I can see why most politicians are unwilling to do anything to upset the status quo.

 

[Tewder]

The backlash against Tory was because he wanted to create multiple separate school systems similar to the catholic one. It was an unmitigated disaster. The question of abolishing the separate system outright has not been tabled by anyone, to my knowledge. Any politician who did would be a hero. Who would have an issue aside from some catholics? Even they can't deny the disparity and waste, with a straight face at least.