Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

[Tim MacDonald]

The triangle gets protected at all costs, at least at Air Canada. There will be no reduction and there's a reason why they have so many flights. It is premium heavy and always has been since the Rapidair brand was introduced in the early 70s. Fleet planning requires a holistic approach that is part of the puzzle of operating a large network. Let's say, for example, we want to look at consolidating two A320 flights (14:00 and 15:00 departures) into one at say 14:30.
1. Is there a wide body aircraft available? If so, can it be profitable operating short haul? It can be very difficult to make money operating large aircraft on short sectors.
2. Is there a gate for it at origin and destination? Gating requirements are extremely complex and can often dictate what say, the marketing department proposes, and what actually gets approved to operate
3. Is flight crew available for this?
4. Is there cabin service, ramp crew, and ground support equipment available to handle it at origin and down line stations?
5. What does the widebody operate next at the down line station?
6. What does the freed up A320 operate?

Yes, you will see some widebodies on the Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal runs but these are often positioning and/or freight runs.

You are indeed correct about Montreal. It is becoming more important in the AC network and I remember them wanting to build it out 20 years ago.

 

[MarkBrooks]

Or another Mirabel.



Until Air Canada starts buying Airbus A380s, Pearson is not nearing capacity.
Until Turboprops are being removed from most regional flights, Pearson is not at capacity.
Until the UP Express is running double deckers to the Pearson, Pearson is not at capacity.

These tell tails would show that Pearson is at capacity, or nearing it and a second relief airport should be built.

your assumption on how an airport can dictate the traffic is amusing, Canada is not a command control economy where a central authority roles out a five year plan. It is a free market. If there is no space at Pearson for an airline to run a profitable flight , it, the people and our economy simple moves away. That is a free market, with the free mobility of people and capital.

thinking that your can avoid a chokepoint by simply upsizing aircraft sizes is false. An airport needs to support a variety of right sizes for each route To be efficient Unless there is a reliever airport like Pickering near by To take offloaded traffic.

Pearson will just choke on the traffic, and along with it, the Toronto and Canadian Economy’s will Choke on it’s lack of efficiency and capacity. Torontos growth will stop, capital and people will move to greener pastures. Some can be offloaded to Montreal but most will simply shift west or to the USA eastern cities.

 

[micheal_can]

your assumption on how an airport can dictate the traffic is amusing, Canada is not a command control economy where a central authority roles out a five year plan. It is a free market. If there is no space at Pearson for an airline to run a profitable flight , it, the people and our economy simple moves away. That is a free market, with the free mobility of people and capital.

thinking that your can avoid a chokepoint by simply upsizing aircraft sizes is false. An airport needs to support a variety of right sizes for each route To be efficient Unless there is a reliever airport like Pickering near by To take offloaded traffic.

Pearson will just choke on the traffic, and along with it, the Toronto and Canadian Economy’s will Choke on it’s lack of efficiency and capacity. Torontos growth will stop, capital and people will move to greener pastures. Some can be offloaded to Montreal but most will simply shift west or to the USA eastern cities.

Then choke it shall.

 

[MarkBrooks]

Then choke it shall.

And Bingo, I rest my case. Pearson has maybe 10 years at most before it hits the wall, it will take 10 year + to build a new airport.

My message is simple, our politicians need to make a choice now, this can not just be kicked down the road for the next guy Or wished way.

 

[raptor]

Hamilton has an international airport, Waterloo has one too. Why do we need to spend billions on a new one right next door at Pickering (relatively speaking)? What am I missing?

 

[kEiThZ]

Fleet planning requires a holistic approach that is part of the puzzle of operating a large network. Let's say, for example, we want to look at consolidating two A320 flights (14:00 and 15:00 departures) into one at say 14:30.
1. Is there a wide body aircraft available? If so, can it be profitable operating short haul? It can be very difficult to make money operating large aircraft on short sectors.
2. Is there a gate for it at origin and destination? Gating requirements are extremely complex and can often dictate what say, the marketing department proposes, and what actually gets approved to operate
3. Is flight crew available for this?
4. Is there cabin service, ramp crew, and ground support equipment available to handle it at origin and down line stations?
5. What does the widebody operate next at the down line station?
6. What does the freed up A320 operate?

Yes, you will see some widebodies on the Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal runs but these are often positioning and/or freight runs.

Not suggesting that consolidation on YYZ/YOW/YUL happens with more widebodies (though I expect more repositioning flights as destinations out of YUL and YOW grow). What I am suggesting is some consolidation through upgauging.

Example:

The outgoing E190 (parted out by the end of next year) has 97 seats on it. The incoming A223 has 137 seats on it. Each A223 replacing an E190 increases capacity by 40%. There's 14 E190 runs on YYZ-YOW today. So unless AC anticipates 40% growth on YOW-YYZ, why would they replace those E190 runs with A223 runs on a 1:1 basis? Put in 11 A223 runs and they save 3 slots and boost capacity by 11%. That is how I see upgauging and slot consolidation playing out across the board.

 

[MarkBrooks]

Hamilton has an international airport, Waterloo has one too. Why do we need to spend billions on a new one right next door at Pickering (relatively speaking)? What am I missing?

A lot, starting with the tyranny of geography, population and efficiency movement of people:

https://pickeringairport.org/where-are-the-major-airports-in-the-greater-toronto-area/

 

[raptor]

A lot, starting with the tyranny of geography, population and efficiency movement of people:

https://pickeringairport.org/where-are-the-major-airports-in-the-greater-toronto-area/

I stopped reading at the spelling mistake in the headline.

 

[micheal_can]

A lot, starting with the tyranny of geography, population and efficiency movement of people:

https://pickeringairport.org/where-are-the-major-airports-in-the-greater-toronto-area/

Well, as I see it, lots can be done with existing airports in the GH. I would be for up ticking those other airports such that they move to the top 5 airports for passenger movements.

And Bingo, I rest my case. Pearson has maybe 10 years at most before it hits the wall, it will take 10 year + to build a new airport.

My message is simple, our politicians need to make a choice now, this can not just be kicked down the road for the next guy Or wished way.

Actually, my point is, right now, the other airports and the passenger rail system works the way they due because Pearson still has capacity. Once it has maxed out, then the governments might look at the other airports and how they can take some demand as well as rail infrastructure and how they can take the demand. We do not need a new airport to take the demand. We need the others to take up the slack. We also need AC and WJ to understand this.

 

[MarkBrooks]

I stopped reading at the spelling mistake in the headline.

we welcome any grammatical corrections you would like to suggest, this is an all volunteer effort so contribute your skills to the mix And make the world better!

 

[micheal_can]

we welcome any grammatical corrections you would like to suggest, this is an all volunteer effort so contribute your skills to the mix And make the world better!

Yet you seem not to welcome any other factual corrections.

 

[MarkBrooks]

Yet you seem not to welcome any other factual corrections.

always welcome factual corrections, on actual facts. You are welcome to your views and conjecture , but they are not facts.

 

[micheal_can]

always welcome factual corrections, on actual facts. You are welcome to your views and conjecture , but they are not facts.

Facts that you will not agree on is that there is no air carrier scrambling to get to the airport, or that train travel should be increased, or that other airports can handle the future demand if infrastructure is improved at a lower cost, etc.
Quit refuting facts and we might listen to your comments more.

 

[raptor]

we welcome any grammatical corrections you would like to suggest, this is an all volunteer effort so contribute your skills to the mix And make the world better!

My contribution is that an airport in Pickering would be an absolute waste of money. Better expand Waterloo or Hamilton. I'm pretty sure the campaign for Pickering is driven by interest groups, just can't pinpoint it.
Heck, with the money to build Pickering airport, just build the transit hub at pearson and add piers G+H, and you have yourself capacity for the next 80 years.

 

[Bsops]

First time long time of this thread. I grew up in the Pickering airport lands. This is prime farmland that is increasingly scarce in the Toronto area. To suggest that we should just destroy it for the sake of an airport that would become another Mirabel is irresponsible.

I am at my parents house as write this. The closest major highway is the 407. There is no higher order transit. Any airport here would be very difficult to access for most people outside of Durham and parts of York region.

When you look at the current trends in airport construction around the globe, it is the consolidation of all passenger traffic into single giant mega airports. Having multiple airports is not attractive to passengers as making connections is really annoying. I have had to cross New York before and Paris to make a connection. It sucks. At least those cities have well developed transit systems that go to their airports.

Pearson has room to expand. There is no business case for a Pickering airport. It’s a bad idea in every possible sense and the only people it would benefit are developers who would cash in on the increased land value.