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Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

kEiThZ

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As usual, Mark is again missing the point. Hamilton can relieve Pearson without a single Oshawa resident driving to Hamilton.

He thinks flying airplanes gives him insight into designing transportation networks. It doesn't. Siting, planning and building airports is a different skill set from flying airplanes.
 

gweed123

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The fact still remains that both current population and future population growth has/will have significantly more people west of Yonge St than east of it.

You can show how long it will take to drive to Hamilton from Oshawa all you want, but the fact of the matter is there are significantly more people in the GGH who would find driving to Hamilton more convenient than driving to Pickering.

Also, getting to YHM could be made significantly easier if GO were to run a bus from Aldershot to YHM. If counter-peak express trains are ever put into place, you would be looking at about 45 mins from Union to Aldershot, and then another 20 from Aldershot to YHM. So about 1:15 total.
 

innsertnamehere

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The fact still remains that both current population and future population growth has/will have significantly more people west of Yonge St than east of it.

You can show how long it will take to drive to Hamilton from Oshawa all you want, but the fact of the matter is there are significantly more people in the GGH who would find driving to Hamilton more convenient than driving to Pickering.

Also, getting to YHM could be made significantly easier if GO were to run a bus from Aldershot to YHM. If counter-peak express trains are ever put into place, you would be looking at about 45 mins from Union to Aldershot, and then another 20 from Aldershot to YHM. So about 1:15 total.
That's optimistic.

I believe RER service to Aldershot is planned for hourly express off peak (en-route to Hamilton), with a ~51 minute travel time. Add 10 minutes of transfers and about 25 minutes to bus up to the airport, and you are looking at 1:25, with hourly frequencies. It would be longer during rush hour with congestion on the 403. Less than Ideal.

Pickering from downtown would probably be about a 30 minute GO ride to Unionville, 10 minute transfer, and 15 minute bus ride on the 407 (consistent travel times). Total: 55 minutes. Can likely run much more than hourly too.

Pickering would be a lot closer to downtown, for sure. Hamilton's allure is simply that the infrastructure *already exists* in a large capacity.
 

gweed123

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That's optimistic.

I believe RER service to Aldershot is planned for hourly express off peak (en-route to Hamilton), with a ~51 minute travel time. Add 10 minutes of transfers and about 25 minutes to bus up to the airport, and you are looking at 1:25, with hourly frequencies. It would be longer during rush hour with congestion on the 403. Less than Ideal.

Pickering from downtown would probably be about a 30 minute GO ride to Unionville, 10 minute transfer, and 15 minute bus ride on the 407 (consistent travel times). Total: 55 minutes. Can likely run much more than hourly too.
Will it really be over 50 minutes? I figured with express it would be a greater time savings as compared to the local trip. In any event, there is also the option to take the local train, which leads to an effective frequency of every 15 mins.

With regards to the 403, my hope would be that some sort of work would be done on it to add HOV lanes. That should increase reliability of a bus service somewhat.

Pickering would be a lot closer to downtown, for sure. Hamilton's allure is simply that the infrastructure *already exists* in a large capacity.
Not to mention the population disbursement of the GTHA has many more people west of Union than east of it. Start that trip in Mississauga and the numbers become quite different.
 

treplow

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I'm in the "let's use/expand what we have before building something from scratch" camp so I support the build out of Hamilton International before starting on Pickering if needed. But the fact remains that YHM has some legitimate location and ground transportation challenges that I feel people are underplaying. Running buses down traffic choked highways just isn't an adequate solution to transport passengers to and from a major international airport in 2019. 4 out of Canada's 6 largest airports either have existing, under construction, or fully funded airport rail links (with the other 2 planned but currently unfunded).
 

micheal_can

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I'm in the "let's use/expand what we have before building something from scratch" camp so I support the build out of Hamilton International before starting on Pickering if needed. But the fact remains that YHM has some legitimate location and ground transportation challenges that I feel people are underplaying. Running buses down traffic choked highways just isn't an adequate solution to transport passengers to and from a major international airport in 2019. 4 out of Canada's 6 largest airports either have existing, under construction, or fully funded airport rail links (with the other 2 planned but currently unfunded).
So, lets ask ourselves, with all the complaining about the various governments wasting taxpayers dollars, what makes more sense: Upgrading an existing airport or, building a new one?
 

MarkBrooks

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Well, first off, why the 4 hour commute? No, seriously, why would this be a regular occurrence enough that it would be an issue. If your job meant you flew most days and you live far from an airport, that is your stupidity, not the problem of an airport.

Your voice is louder for the Pickering airport being built in farmland that it is for the expansion of Hamilton's. No one in here thinks you even want to acknowledge Hamilton's.
Hey, I have an idea, Instead of abandoning Durham region and moving closer to another cities airport, let’s build one of our own! Better yet let’s use private money, so the Feds will have no excuse to say no. Voters made their point in the 2018 civic elections that swept a pro airport majority into power in Durham region.

With Pearson at capacity, what region will be hurt the most? What citizens will be the hardest hit , eastern Toronto and Durham.

But no, this doesn’t let Hamilton off the hook. They need to refinance and enhance the Hamilton airport. Like Pickering, this should be market driven using private funding.

If Pickering can be privately financed why should Hamilton simply assume it can get easy tax dollars to improve its airport?
 

micheal_can

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Hey, I have an idea, Instead of abandoning Durham region and moving closer to another cities airport, let’s build one of our own! Better yet let’s use private money, so the Feds will have no excuse to say no. Voters made their point in the 2018 civic elections that swept a pro airport majority into power in Durham region.
Voters voted for many things. Unless there was an actual referendum, they voted for the politician, not the singular issue.

With Pearson at capacity, what region will be hurt the most? What citizens will be the hardest hit , eastern Toronto and Durham.
Not so. If Hamilton was brought up to the level needed, then it could relieve Pearson. In fact, by drawing people west it would actually eb a good thing for Durham residents as there would be less people at Pearson.

But no, this doesn’t let Hamilton off the hook. They need to refinance and enhance the Hamilton airport. Like Pickering, this should be market driven using private funding.
Funny, I m not hearing about anyone saying they will build it. You keep talking about P3s or government funding it all together. That is not private funding.

If Pickering can be privately financed why should Hamilton simply assume it can get easy tax dollars to improve its airport?
I have yet to see you say anything on private funding. P3s, yes. Government funding, yes. But no private funding.
 

kEiThZ

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I'm in the "let's use/expand what we have before building something from scratch" camp so I support the build out of Hamilton International before starting on Pickering if needed. But the fact remains that YHM has some legitimate location and ground transportation challenges that I feel people are underplaying. Running buses down traffic choked highways just isn't an adequate solution to transport passengers to and from a major international airport in 2019. 4 out of Canada's 6 largest airports either have existing, under construction, or fully funded airport rail links (with the other 2 planned but currently unfunded).
Your concern is valid. But it's a red herring when talking about a Pickering proposal that also has no transit connection. Mark's big pitch was that people could use the 407 to access Pickering.

I'd argue it's a red herring when discussing expansion. What's the modal share of transit at Pearson? Under 10%? If they can get to 30 million without a rail connection, I fail to see the issue with expanding YHM to say 20 million.A Arail connection is a nice to have. Not a pre-requisite for airport expansion.

Also, this is Canada. Planning and coordination suck. We generally build Infrastructure 10-20 years after needed. I'd expect that to be true for any rail connection to YHM.
 
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kEiThZ

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Voters voted for many things. Unless there was an actual referendum, they voted for the politician, not the singular issue.
Mark cites the voters. They also voted for Liberal MPs who oppose the airport. Apparently for Mark only pro-airport politicians have a valid mandate. Funny how that works.

I have yet to see you say anything on private funding. P3s, yes. Government funding, yes. But no private funding.
There's no private finding.

And I don't think Mark knows what "P3" stands for.
 
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treplow

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Your concern is valid. But it's a red herring when talking about a Pickering proposal that also has no transit connection. Mark's big pitch was that people could use the 407 to access Pickering.

I'd argue it's a red herring when discussing expansion. What's the modal share of transit at Pearson? Under 10%? If they can get to 30 million without a rail connection, I fail to see the issue with expanding YHM to say 20 million.A Arail connection is a nice to have. Not a pre-requisite for airport expansion.

Also, this is Canada. Planning and coordination suck. We generally build Infrastructure 10-20 years after needed. I'd expect that to be true for any rail connection to YHM.
Haha fair enough. I've come around on LRT @ YHM - a direct connection to Hamilton GO Centre and/or West Harbour in tandem with AD2W service on the Lakeshore West line would be a valid interim ground transit solution
 

MarkBrooks

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It is an interesting test for any government, but not for the reasons that this author thinks. He has gone down a political rabbit hole, but then silly season is coming up, Sept 16th parliament returns and the writ will drop.
.
 

Lone Primate

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I'm not sure why so much of this came down to an either/or thing between Pickering and Hamilton. Mt. Hope is great; it's there, there's not much around it; I keep thinking if they'd just put a lot of pharma around it, in conjunction with McMaster, it could be a great hub for medicine and help rejuvenate Hamilton. Expanded, it could serve the needs of southwestern Ontario the way Pearson does south-central. But we're running out of space in the west. We're already coming up against the moraine limits, and—assuming Premier Fats doesn't turn that into a free-for-all—we're going to have to start settling newcomers and their businesses to the east, and verticalize Durham. The airport lands have been set aside for servicing that for most of our lives. I think it's time we got on with that, too. I don't think it's one or the other. I think they all have a role to play, and all should be invested in.
 

kEiThZ

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I think they all have a role to play, and all should be invested in.
This presumes that government funds are not constrained. They are. Even if the airfield itself is funded by private investor, everything else connected to the airport, from the watermains to the road to rail service is publicly funded. Any responsible government would not overbuild.

And on Pickering, there's absolutely nothing that says it has to be built anything soon, or that they have to build a large commercial airport. Ultimately, those lands exists to serve the whole GTA, not just Durham, as Mark Brooks keeps banging on about. Governments could well decide that population levels in the east end don't warrant an airport at this time, and then decide to bolster Hamilton as the west end reliever.
 

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