Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

[dowlingm]

They will if they are told that YTZ is going to be closed in conjunction with Pickering opening up. And yes that means a change of business model. Maybe Pickering can offer them exclusivity as the Canadian network carrier in the airport.

I consider it more likely that the people behind PD will use whatever legal means they can to stop YTZ closing, followed by a sale to someone like WestJet. I doubt Pickering could shut out other carriers in favour of PD - AC in particular would respond ferociously, just as they did when Porter started expanding on the island.

REGCO Sues Toronto Over Aborted Airport Bridge | Aero-News Network

They've been threatening to do it for a long time. Now, Regional Airlines Holdings has filed a massive lawsuit against the city of Toronto (ON) over a| Published: Sun, Jan 18, 2004 | Aero-News Network

www.aero-news.net

During Miller's campaign, Air Canada Jazz expressed interest in flying from the airport and hinted it might use regional jets to do so. That letter became public and became a flashpoint for anti-airport interests who built their argument on noise and traffic problems.

 

[MarkBrooks]

I consider it more likely that the people behind PD will use whatever legal means they can to stop YTZ closing, followed by a sale to someone like WestJet. I doubt Pickering could shut out other carriers in favour of PD - AC in particular would respond ferociously, just as they did when Porter started expanding on the island.

REGCO Sues Toronto Over Aborted Airport Bridge | Aero-News Network

They've been threatening to do it for a long time. Now, Regional Airlines Holdings has filed a massive lawsuit against the city of Toronto (ON) over a| Published: Sun, Jan 18, 2004 | Aero-News Network

www.aero-news.net

That’s was news in 2004, since then porter won its law suit, and before air Canada could blink, they used the proceeds to buy the terminal ( and thus control of airline access to YTZ) and then used that to freeze air canada to only a handful of daily flights.

A classic example of how small and nimble competition can beat Air Canada at almost anything. Thus their worry over the competition that Pickering will foster.

Air Canada got some payback when it hoodwinked the feds into using their power to delay the runway extension at city center, but that will happen at some point. Count on it.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

While population wise, Sydney seems like a good comparison, Sydney doesn't have 3 other major airports in orbit around it like Toronto does (Hamilton, Billy Bishop, Buffalo). They are also starting it at a very small scale. I said that's an okay idea already for Pickering. Start with a GA airport and maybe a bit of passenger service. However scaling to something even comparable to Ottawa and Edmonton (5 million and 6 million a year) within the next couple of decades is far fetched. If we're all wrong, it's an easy correction. But a very likely scenario that would stump growth at Pickering is AC moving a portion of it's hub traffic elsewhere.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Lester B. Pearson International Airport started out as a small Malton Airport in 1937. See link.

From link.

 

[kEiThZ]

There’s one point I agree with Mark. I think the KPMG study is likely to recommend proceeding with Pickering.

People really should read what they got tasked with:

Fact sheet and Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - Transport Canada

Transport Canada - Ontario Region, Pickering Lands

www.tc.gc.ca

I think Mark’s going to be disappointed by the scope of airport they recommended comes out. They were tasked to look at capacity for all of Southern Ontario, draw up options and develop preliminary business cases for all these options.

I have a feeling everything we’ve discussed here came up in their analysis. From where most of the population lives, to the return on investment on existing infrastructure, to the massive cost of supporting infrastructure for Pickering. There’s some very obvious conclusions to me.

Pearson: Build the sixth runway. Replace Terminal 3. Build the transit hub.

Hamilton: Build a new terminal or expand the existing one. Improve the access roads. Build parking structures. Possibly build the fuel pipeline.

Billy Bishop: Move most General Aviation out to increase utilization by commercial operators.

And those conclusions mean one thing: move GA from Billy Bishop and Buttonville (and possibly Oshawa) to Pickering. Secure enough room for future growth of commercial aviation. Maybe a small terminal to start. For example, Billy Bishop is at 3 million would handle 5+ million if it didn’t have the runway length restriction. The terminal wouldn’t have be much bigger either. Envision an airport that’s slightly larger than Billy Bishop and you start to get an idea of what might be built. And an airport that size doesn’t actually need a substantial amount of municipal infrastructure to launch.

Mark has taken the airport study to mean that they’ll recommend concentrating all development in one place. Any analysis that simplistic would not be worth the fees.

 

[narduch]

Proponents of this airport are running radio commercials. I heard one this morning on 94.6 The Rock (Oshawa based station)

They have a website but I didn't catch the name. It's not the same one Mark is pushing

 

[kEiThZ]

Proponents of this airport are running radio commercials. I heard one this morning on 94.6 The Rock (Ottawa based station)

They have a website but I didn't catch the name. It's not the same one Mark is pushing

Interesting if they are playing it in Ottawa. Trying to convince the bureaucracy and politicians I guess.

But if you have to run ads on the radio, that says a lot about how little influence you have. If there’s anybody seriously interested in this airport and they actually have the funds, they aren’t running radio ads. They are lobbying Garneau directly and meeting with the CIB.

 

[MarkBrooks]

While population wise, Sydney seems like a good comparison, Sydney doesn't have 3 other major airports in orbit around it like Toronto does (Hamilton, Billy Bishop, Buffalo). They are also starting it at a very small scale. I said that's an okay idea already for Pickering. Start with a GA airport and maybe a bit of passenger service. However scaling to something even comparable to Ottawa and Edmonton (5 million and 6 million a year) within the next couple of decades is far fetched. If we're all wrong, it's an easy correction. But a very likely scenario that would stump growth at Pickering is AC moving a portion of it's hub traffic elsewhere.

Here are the airports in and around Sydney:

Further a field, the Green dots mark other jet airports. The one to the south, Jarvis bay, is about the same distance by road as Toronto to buffalo, minus the long wait at the peace bridge.

The new Airport in western Sydney has the same size and passenger profile as both phases of the proposed Pickering airport. They are kissing cousins in many ways including being Capacity driven and passenger orientated.

Btw, when did Billy bishop become a major jet airport? They are maxing out just north of 3 million pax and can not take jets. I support a runway extension and porters use of the CSeries jets that would allow that to go to 5-6 million.

 

[MarkBrooks]

Proponents of this airport are running radio commercials. I heard one this morning on 94.6 The Rock (Ottawa based station)

They have a website but I didn't catch the name. It's not the same one Mark is pushing

By proponents, I assume you mean the city of Pickering and thier elected officials who ran and won on a campaign promise of building the airport?
The city has been running radio ads for a while. I think you know why they are running those adds on an Ottawa station.

Try:

Toronto East Aerotropolis

www.pickering.ca

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Here are the airports in and around Sydney:

View attachment 199554

Further a field, the Green dots mark other jet airports. The one to the south, Jarvis bay, is about the same distance by road as Toronto to buffalo, minus the long wait at the peace bridge.

View attachment 199555

The new Airport in western Sydney has the same size and passenger profile as both phases of the proposed Pickering airport. They are kissing cousins in many ways including being Capacity driven and passenger orientated.

Btw, when did Billy bishop become a major jet airport? They are maxing out just north of 3 million pax and can not take jets. I support a runway extension and porters use of the CSeries jets that would allow that to go to 5-6 million.

Who used the word jet? I'm talking passenger volumes. Billy Bishop is 9th busiest in the country, ahead of Regina, Saskatoon and Quebec City, despite having no jet traffic.

 

[narduch]

Interesting if they are playing it in Ottawa. Trying to convince the bureaucracy and politicians I guess.

But if you have to run ads on the radio, that says a lot about how little influence you have. If there’s anybody seriously interested in this airport and they actually have the funds, they aren’t running radio ads. They are lobbying Garneau directly and meeting with the CIB.

Crap no. That was supposed to say Oshawa. Stupid autocorrect

 

[narduch]

By proponents, I assume you mean the city of Pickering and thier elected officials who ran and won on a campaign promise of building the airport?
The city has been running radio ads for a while. I think you know why they are running those adds on an Ottawa station.

Try:

Toronto East Aerotropolis

www.pickering.ca

Ya. That's the site.

But in the commercial they make no mention of the Pickering government.

They tell people to go to economicevidence.ca which redirects you to the link above.

 

[MarkBrooks]

Crap no. That was supposed to say Oshawa. Stupid autocorrect

That makes more sense, I have heard them as well.

 

[micheal_can]

There’s one point I agree with Mark. I think the KPMG study is likely to recommend proceeding with Pickering.

People really should read what they got tasked with:

Fact sheet and Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - Transport Canada

Transport Canada - Ontario Region, Pickering Lands

www.tc.gc.ca

I think Mark’s going to be disappointed by the scope of airport they recommended comes out. They were tasked to look at capacity for all of Southern Ontario, draw up options and develop preliminary business cases for all these options.

I have a feeling everything we’ve discussed here came up in their analysis. From where most of the population lives, to the return on investment on existing infrastructure, to the massive cost of supporting infrastructure for Pickering. There’s some very obvious conclusions to me.

Pearson: Build the sixth runway. Replace Terminal 3. Build the transit hub.

Hamilton: Build a new terminal or expand the existing one. Improve the access roads. Build parking structures. Possibly build the fuel pipeline.

Billy Bishop: Move most General Aviation out to increase utilization by commercial operators.

And those conclusions mean one thing: move GA from Billy Bishop and Buttonville (and possibly Oshawa) to Pickering. Secure enough room for future growth of commercial aviation. Maybe a small terminal to start. For example, Billy Bishop is at 3 million would handle 5+ million if it didn’t have the runway length restriction. The terminal wouldn’t have be much bigger either. Envision an airport that’s slightly larger than Billy Bishop and you start to get an idea of what might be built. And an airport that size doesn’t actually need a substantial amount of municipal infrastructure to launch.

Mark has taken the airport study to mean that they’ll recommend concentrating all development in one place. Any analysis that simplistic would not be worth the fees.

So, build a small GA airport and be done with it. Pickering will not replace The island or Pearson.

However, if you plan on building Pickering, then do the others too. Don't just do one and not the others.

 

[mdrejhon]

Hamilton: Build a new terminal or expand the existing one. Improve the access transportation. Build parking structures. Possibly build the fuel pipeline.

Fixed that for you.

Let's not neglect the A-Line [BRT, LRT] as part of the transportation mix.

Anyway -- Hamilton's airport is finally on a big upswing in growth with the arrival of Swoop (despite Swoop's problems).

Today I can fly to Orlando for CDN $89 taxes included. Halifax for $59 tax-included, and Las Vegas for $92 tax-included -- kind of like Canada's Ryanair. Those are less than those "Have To Travel To Buffalo" prices. Those are not even "only 2 seats per plane" cherrypick seats, those prices are available on 3/4th of the dates if I book 2 months in advance! It's attracting a surge of travellers. Although Swoop is having problems sometimes (e.g. cancellation inconvenience) -- you see the national news. But still, one can easily book a $50-league airfare (taxes included)! Unheard of in Canada. So people still do in flock. Of course, you have to pay an arm and a leg if you even merely bring a carryon. Just like EasyJet or Ryanair if you've ever flown in Europe. Southwest is also eyeing Canada. Amongst other things.

YHM is very spartan, and barebones by today airport standards but even better food is finally coming to Hamilton airport! Detour Coffee Roasters is opening, and they're planning better food amenities. Losing money for years, the few restaurants that are there are now expanding to keep with demand.

So there is some momentum to Hamilton airport now with an airport improvement pressure. Eventually it's going to dominoe all the way to bigger stuff for YHM, me thinks. YHM did indeed become one of North America's fastest growing airport, by passenger growth.

Even with YHM growing back today to heyday league (projected to exceed ~1M similar to WestJet heyday) -- it's still literally only only one third its potential capacity (give or take a wide margin).