Pickering Airport (Transport Canada/GTAA, Proposed)

[TOareaFan]

It's a scalable proposal. So it won't be a Mirabel. At first, it will just be another Buttonville. If traffic warrants it, they can scale it up to something bigger.

It is (IMO) the exact opposite of Mirabel.....there, they opened a mega, modern airport and expected the world to fly into it....then tried many attempts at downsizing it to fit the market needs....charter-cargo-close it and teach high performance driving on the runways (if you can believe AmazingRaceCanada)........at Pickering there seems to be a move to open small and build to the market needs.

That said, since we are debating the possible transit needs of an airport that has not been built and not actually approved (even though it seems they have been talking about it my entire adult life) it makes me wonder if that is not what the transit fantasy map thread was intended for

 

[nfitz]

It is (IMO) the exact opposite of Mirabel.....there, they opened a mega, modern airport and expected the world to fly into it....then tried many attempts at downsizing it to fit the market needs....charter-cargo-close it and teach high performance driving on the runways (if you can believe AmazingRaceCanada)........at Pickering there seems to be a move to open small and build to the market needs.

That said, since we are debating the possible transit needs of an airport that has not been built and not actually approved (even though it seems they have been talking about it my entire adult life) it makes me wonder if that is not what the transit fantasy map thread was intended for

Mirabel is still open for cargo - http://www.admtl.com/en/business/air-services/air-cargo

Looking at Google Maps, the race track is not on the runways, it's on the infield area of one of the passenger terminal satellites and the related taxiway.

 

[kEiThZ]

The Pickering airport is going to happen because Buttonville is going. And Markham and Oshawa may follow. Need a place in the eastern GTA to relocate all that GA traffic.

Hamilton really should be developed as the second major airport for the region. The problem, however, is how to get airlines to relocate there. And this is one of a jurisdictional bun fight, together with an issue of supporting infrastructure. Hamilton airport is a bit far to access without the kind of rail service that Pearson will soon have. Especially if it is to be reliever for TPIA. And next, since Hamilton doesn't fall under the GTAA, it's not motivated to truly push and develop the airport as an alternative. The feds and/or the province will have to step in and invest in Hamilton, as an LCC airport. There needs to be enough incentive given, and enough infrastructure in place, to convince Sunwing and Air Transat to move to Hamilton. Those moves would create plenty of room for Air Canada's international hub expansion at TPIA.

If passengers are willing to drive to Buffalo to catch a flight, why not Hamilton?

 

[TOareaFan]

The Pickering airport is going to happen because Buttonville is going. And Markham and Oshawa may follow. Need a place in the eastern GTA to relocate all that GA traffic.

Hamilton really should be developed as the second major airport for the region. The problem, however, is how to get airlines to relocate there. And this is one of a jurisdictional bun fight, together with an issue of supporting infrastructure. Hamilton airport is a bit far to access without the kind of rail service that Pearson will soon have. Especially if it is to be reliever for TPIA. And next, since Hamilton doesn't fall under the GTAA, it's not motivated to truly push and develop the airport as an alternative. The feds and/or the province will have to step in and invest in Hamilton, as an LCC airport. There needs to be enough incentive given, and enough infrastructure in place, to convince Sunwing and Air Transat to move to Hamilton. Those moves would create plenty of room for Air Canada's international hub expansion at TPIA.

If passengers are willing to drive to Buffalo to catch a flight, why not Hamilton?

People don't drive to Buffalo because its convenient...nor do they even pretend its convenient....they do it because it is cheap....then they justify the inconvenience as not so much that it offsets the savings they have.

 

[ShonTron]

I did not mean that it would be a Mirabel as it opened in the mid 1970s. The initial plans and the huge land assembly were, however, going to be for a Mirabel-sized airport.

What I did mean is that Pickering, if built, would be used as Mirabel is today - cargo, general aviation, special purposes, etc. Mirabel took over the purposes of the old Cartierville Airport (similar to Buttonville/Downsview). Perhaps a few spoke-flights and charters (which is what Mirabel's last years as a passenger facility ended up being used for). So apart from some bus services, there's no need to plan for any transportation to Pickering apart from protecting a double-track rail right-of-way from the CP Havelock or CP Belleville Subs and/or freeway connector roads from the 407. If the GTAA is intent on building an airport at pickering expandable to being a full-fledged international airport, it would be really stupid not to protect high-order road and rail connections.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

The Pickering airport is going to happen because Buttonville is going. And Markham and Oshawa may follow. Need a place in the eastern GTA to relocate all that GA traffic.

Hamilton really should be developed as the second major airport for the region. The problem, however, is how to get airlines to relocate there. And this is one of a jurisdictional bun fight, together with an issue of supporting infrastructure. Hamilton airport is a bit far to access without the kind of rail service that Pearson will soon have. Especially if it is to be reliever for TPIA. And next, since Hamilton doesn't fall under the GTAA, it's not motivated to truly push and develop the airport as an alternative. The feds and/or the province will have to step in and invest in Hamilton, as an LCC airport. There needs to be enough incentive given, and enough infrastructure in place, to convince Sunwing and Air Transat to move to Hamilton. Those moves would create plenty of room for Air Canada's international hub expansion at TPIA.

If passengers are willing to drive to Buffalo to catch a flight, why not Hamilton?

Buttonville leaving doesn't mean Pickering will be built. Our community isn't going to roll over and allow an airport, even a small scalable one designed initially only for GA traffic, to get a foothold on the Federal Lands (especially just for the good of GA!) without a tremendous battle. Markham and Oshawa are already built - let's not waste more of Pickering's farmland on another GA airport.

I agree with you however that Hamilton is where any spillover of major air traffic should occur. Link up the airport there with excellent transit connections to the GO RER extensions to James St and Stoney Creek, and we will have no need for a Pickering Airport in perpetuity. The fight to get airlines to relocate there will not be easy, though it would be no easier for Pickering. Luckily there's no impending air traffic crunch at Pearson - capacity is still plentiful there. So that particular set of discussions is in no rush to take place.

I did not mean that it would be a Mirabel as it opened in the mid 1970s. The initial plans and the huge land assembly were, however, going to be for a Mirabel-sized airport.

What I did mean is that Pickering would be used as Mirabel is today - cargo, general aviation, special purposes, etc. Perhaps a few spoke-flights and charters (which is what Mirabel's last years as a passenger facility ended up being used for). So apart from some bus services, there's no need to plan for any transportation to Pickering apart from protecting a double-track rail right-of-way from the CP Havelock or CP Belleville Subs and/or freeway connector roads from the 407.

Agreed on the transit connections. Keep the right-of-way on Havelock and Belleville wide enough for multiple tracks and room for a 407 freeway connector (the CP ROWs should be guarded for double-tracking regardless of the airport or not).

You're also right about the scale of the airport. Pierre Trudeau had a fully-Mirabel-sized airport twinkling in his eyes in the 1970s for Pickering, and even the amount of land kept available for the airport by the Harper regime (they did remove some for a Rouge National Urban Park) is more than enough for an airport on the scale of Mirabel or Pearson even.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

You're also right about the scale of the airport. Pierre Trudeau had a fully-Mirabel-sized airport twinkling in his eyes in the 1970s for Pickering, and even the amount of land kept available for the airport by the Harper regime (they did remove some for a Rouge National Urban Park) is more than enough for an airport on the scale of Mirabel or Pearson even.

Let's compare the land area:

Pearson: 1,867 ha

Pickering lands: 7,530 ha (maybe half will be airport area?)

Definitely able to make a Pearson-scale airport on this. I actually had no idea how much larger it was!

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Let's compare the land area:

Pearson: 1,867 ha

Pickering lands: 7,530 ha (maybe half will be airport area?)

Definitely able to make a Pearson-scale airport on this. I actually had no idea how much larger it was!

Take a gander at www.landoverlandings.com . A lot of people simply haven't heard some of the more egregious facts about how immense this project really was/is, and what sort of effect it would have on our environment in the GTA.

 

[muller877]

Buttonville leaving doesn't mean Pickering will be built. Our community isn't going to roll over and allow an airport, even a small scalable one designed initially only for GA traffic, to get a foothold on the Federal Lands
....
I agree with you however that Hamilton is where any spillover of major air traffic should occur. Link up the airport there with excellent transit connections to the GO RER extensions to James St and Stoney Creek, and we will have no need for a Pickering Airport in perpetuity.
...
Luckily there's no impending air traffic crunch at Pearson - capacity is still plentiful there.

What a NIMBY attitude.

To answer some of the misconceptions in your post...

1. What is around Hamilton Airport? Agricultural Land. What will Hamilton region lose if the airport expands? Agricultural Land. Other than the small area that is Hamilton Airport right now there is no difference in the lost agricultural land (although it could be argued that the land near Hamilton has better yields then in Pickering).

2. Transit Links. Hamilton airport is about 85 km from Union Station. The closest rail line is in Hamilton with no foreseeable way to extend it up the Mountain. A second connection is needed (and, at a maximum Hamilton will run a mixed-use LRT line downtown and it will turn into a dedicated line at the top of the Mountain to get to the Airport). A 15 km LRT experience after a 1 hr train ride.

Pickering on the other hand is 45 km away from Union. Almost exactly 1/2 the distance. And only a few km away from a heavy rail line. Is ideal for an inter-modal or "inland port" transportation hub. Also very easy to run a spur of the rail line to the airport (like UPE).

So an hour train ride and a LRT through the centre of the city OR a 30 minute train ride with either a spur or a very short bus to the airport. Hmmm....which is a better connection?

3. Industrial Development. Simple question...why not? The east end of the GTA is struggling to get more jobs and there are a lot of people with manufacturing expertise who are looking for employment. Pearson has tens of thousands of spin-off jobs....over time this economic engine will have no place to grow.

4. Pearson capacity. Pearson will have a longer time until it reaches capacity. The last decade had a lot of unforseen issues in the aviation world but the growth of Pearson is now accelerating (just 5-10 years behind predictions). They will run out of capacity....there is no doubt. The only question is when. And whether this will mean that cargo or passangers will have to have another airport. We can't just plan for next year but we have to think for the next 20.



The final issue is proximity to Pearson. Like it or not Pearson is on the west side of Toronto. People from Mississauga, Oakville and Milton will gravitate to Pearson for flights. A second airport (Buffalo, Kitchener and Hamilton) is a great alternative but that's what they will always be...an alternative for cheaper fights. Most poeple would prefer Pearson if they offered it for the same price. If you go to the other side of Toronto (Pickering), it may become an airport of choice for those living in Pickering, Markham, etc., not just because of cost concerns but because of proximity.

I know you will never agree with me...but wanted to inform the other readers that some of your ideas are just your views and not facts

***EDIT***

If you are against development of any airport...that's fine. But it's silly to try to pit one part of the GTA against another.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Much of what you say is very true, yet I feel the need to prolong the debate just a little bit. I'm aware that the thread is on transportation links to the airport rather than the airport itself; I won't make any more ideological comments after this one

Are my attitudes NIMBY? Of course they are. Is NIMBY always such a detestable thing? Not necessarily: only if those attitudes stand in opposition to progress and block the construction of infrastructure that is necessary. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, those men and women who opposed the Spadina Expressway would have been lambasted as NIMBYs, and yet we all know now how vital their work was in keeping Toronto's downtown the vibrant area that it remains today and congratulate them for their struggle. So I don't mind being a NIMBY if it means doing what I think is right. The key is that the Pickering Airport is not a necessary evil, and opposition to it should not be thrown out as simple NIMBYism. It's about trying to minimize the damage to our environment and natural heritage, preserving our communities' health, and in fact also spending our tax dollars wisely.

Pearson has much spare capacity. Hamilton has capacity and room to expand. Waterloo has room to expand (and that's all the better if HSR is ever realized). Yes, it would be nice to have an airport in the eastern end of the GTHA, but there's no use in destroying so very much farmland and spending so very many taxpayer dollars to build an entirely new airport in Pickering for which there is no, and has never been a, business case.

To link the east of the GTHA to its western-concentrated airports, our money and effort would be far better spent in upgrading regional and local transit to the airports that do exist. That means full GO service on all lines, to link the GTA with Pearson, Hamilton, and Waterloo, along with dedicated bus services to connect higher-order transit lines to the airports themselves. Travel time will not be instantaneous, and yes may be slower than a link to Pickering, but it will be possible.

Environmental damage will occur no matter which airport is expanded, but the Pickering Federal Lands remain untouched greenspace as of now. If the airport is cancelled and the land placed under protection, it can remain an agricultural preserve in perpetuity - all that's lacking is the political will to do so. Land around Hamilton and Waterloo airports will be lost as they are expanded, for sure, but those airports exist already, and that loss will be hugely less than building an entirely new one. With regards to fertility of the soil, the airport lands in Pickering are nearly 100% located on Class 1 soil.

And as to drawing jobs to the east of the city, it's folly to think that manufacturing and industry will suddenly experience a rennaissance in Durham if catalyzed by an airport. These sectors have been in decline not only in Durham but indeed across Ontario for years now, and the factors pushing that trend along will not easily be alleviated by an airport in Pickering. If there are to be expansions, there are serious vacancies in already industrial-zoned areas in Pickering, Ajax, Whitby, and Oshawa near established road and rail connections. No need to tear up greenspace for more.

I could drone on for days, but I'll stop now for having pulled this thread fairly off-topic. As you've said that my posts are in part just my views and not facts, so it is the same with yours. I'm not at all trying to pit the GTA against itself

 

[interchange42]

MrsNesbitt, it is certainly not just you derailing the thread. It seems that it's impossible for people to talk about Pickering Airport transportation without talking about the airport itself. There's no reason to have separate threads for the time being, so I have merged the threads. At such time in the distant future when we have to actually worry about transport to this airport, a new train line being built to it could be discussed in a separate thread then. For now all the speculation about whatever related to the airport might as well be here.

42

 

[nfitz]

Mirabel was practically built out to full size (to my knowledge) and never had the demand to fill the capacity.

Mirabel was built no where near to full size. The vast majority of it was never built. In terms of how little was actually builty, it's very comparable to Pickering. However Pickering will be only freight and general aviation initially. Pretty much what Mirabel is now. It was the passenger side at Mirabel that was the failure. Had they built a small passenger terminal for just charter, and some domestic low-budget airlines, it would have never have been a white elephant. It was forcing all the international flights there, and the Domestic/US ones to Trudeau which was the problem.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Pickering upon initial completion will likely be very small, in line with Hamilton, Kitchener, and London. probably around 100,000 PAX for the first little while. as someone who drives down Brock road extremely often, I drive right by the site all the time, and see no real issue with it as a small GA airport, or even a large one for that matter, provided it is constructed as such as required. A large passenger facility at Pickering likely isn't going to be needed until the 2050s or later.

GA is generally being moved to exurban airports already, Greenbank (previously just a grass runway) and Burlington airports are currently being expanded in major ways.

 

[gweed123]

Pickering upon initial completion will likely be very small, in line with Hamilton, Kitchener, and London. probably around 100,000 PAX for the first little while. as someone who drives down Brock road extremely often, I drive right by the site all the time, and see no real issue with it as a small GA airport, or even a large one for that matter, provided it is constructed as such as required. A large passenger facility at Pickering likely isn't going to be needed until the 2050s or later.

GA is generally being moved to exurban airports already, Greenbank (previously just a grass runway) and Burlington airports are currently being expanded in major ways.

I'm not opposed to the Pickering Airport, in theory. A consolidated GA airport in the eastern GTA makes sense, especially considering that both Buttonville and Oshawa are sitting on top of easily developable land, which has already been virtually surrounded by development. Pickering on the other hand would be isolated because of the amount of land purchased around it.

Do I think the GTHA needs a second major airport? No. But an additional regional airport in the eastern GTA, even if it's only handling GA and an airline or two running a regional service out of it, I think is acceptable, and in fact desirable.

I just hope that the appropriate corridors for transportation connections are being maintained. Specifically:

1) A connection to the CP freight line in the event CP wants to relocate their Scarborough Yard there to be adjacent to air freight facilities, something that Pearson can't really offer right now. That would be a boon for CP, since the Scarborough Yard is sitting on a gold mine.

2) A ROW to connect to the future Seaton GO line.

3) The West Durham Link being built with a northward extension in mind, so that it can connect to the airport if it ever does become a major passenger hub. At least then drivers to the airport would have a direct highway connection to both the 407 and 401.

Hopefully none of those things are precluded by surrounding development (ie Seaton) cutting them off.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Mirabel was built no where near to full size. The vast majority of it was never built. In terms of how little was actually builty, it's very comparable to Pickering. However Pickering will be only freight and general aviation initially. Pretty much what Mirabel is now. It was the passenger side at Mirabel that was the failure. Had they built a small passenger terminal for just charter, and some domestic low-budget airlines, it would have never have been a white elephant. It was forcing all the international flights there, and the Domestic/US ones to Trudeau which was the problem.

View attachment 33548

I stand corrected then. Although Mirabel was supposed to take all the international traffic from Trudeau rather than international remain at Trudeau, and Domestic/USA flights moved to Mirabel. The GTAA/Pickering plan is just the opposite. Toronto Pearson remain the major international hub while a secondary (Pickering) airport act as the Domestic reliever.