Peterborough Commuter Rail

[DarnDirtyApe]

It's a shame that better GO service within Scarborough & eastern North York doesn't seem to be considered separately from the Peterborough boondoggle. The Belleville sub runs through densely populated areas that face long commutes downtown via TTC. An electrified (for quicker acceleration) line with stops at Don Mills/Eglinton, Lawrence/Victoria Park, Warden/Ellesmere, Kennedy/Sheppard, McCowan and Neilson would form a nice addition to the GO network. Too bad Metrolinx seems to care more about enabling sprawl than improving transit (and encouraging intensification) within already developed areas like Scarborough.

 

[MisterF]

Boondoggle? Hardly. There's much more demand for rail travel if they route it where people are actually going - through Oshawa. They're going about it all wrong.

Because Peterborough is the swing riding.

I lived in Peterborough for five years (just until the end of April), and aside from the train I cannot think of a single thing Dean Del Mastro has done for the community (except for his crazy IMAX on Little Lake scheme). Seriously, aside from the train the only notable thing he's done is send out a ridiculous amount of misspelt flyers. Hopefully the good people of Peterborough will kick this awful MP out come next election now that his train plan has been derailed (pardon the pun).

Somewhat related to the train (in that the train could act as catalyst to suburbanizing Peterborough), I've heard that recently the City's jumped on the New Urbanist bandwagon and that these principles will be applied to the new community planned for (I believe) Chemong Rd. I'm a bit skeptical, as anything that's been built over the past 20 or so years has been anything but urban (not that much was built compared to GTA municipalities), but I'm hopeful.

It's hard to say where Peterborough will be 20 years from now. It's a strange little city filled with paradoxes, but it seems to work for the most part and remains probably one of the most vibrant cities of its size in the province. My musings as to why probably belong in a separate thread, but I would really hate to see it gutted and transformed into some exurban wasteland. No GO train service is good news for me with this in mind. They should invest that money into better local transit, a homeless shelter, or one of the 2000 other things Peterborough needs before a train.

Peterborough has two faces: one of Ontario's most vibrant downtowns along with a lot of awful suburban sprawl. The city was kind of forced into higher density by Places to Grow, which requires 50 residents and jobs per hectare in new development. In other words, becoming an exurban wasteland is now illegal. That generally leads to more traditional neighbourhood design (not necessarily new urbanism). This is happening all over the Greater Golden Horseshoe. AKAIK the new urbanist design of the new community in the Chemong area was proposed by the developer, not the city. But unlike Durham and Simcoe, Peterborough isn't fighting Places to Grow. The surrounding townships, on the other hand....

 

[Mapleson]

It's a shame that better GO service within Scarborough & eastern North York doesn't seem to be considered separately from the Peterborough boondoggle. The Belleville sub runs through densely populated areas that face long commutes downtown via TTC. An electrified (for quicker acceleration) line with stops at Don Mills/Eglinton, Lawrence/Victoria Park, Warden/Ellesmere, Kennedy/Sheppard, McCowan and Neilson would form a nice addition to the GO network. Too bad Metrolinx seems to care more about enabling sprawl than improving transit (and encouraging intensification) within already developed areas like Scarborough.

You forget about CPR's Agincourt Yard (McCowan and Sheppard). This is CP's main freight marshalling yard in Ontario. As Belleville is CP's rail subdivision, CP has final decision to any passenger train routing. CP has been adament about protecting Agincourt, since they consolidated there from Lampton and West Toronto in the 1960s. If you built a new Agincourt for CP somewhere else, you might be able to route passenger trains this way. Without that incentive, why would CP ever allow this? On the other hand, that's a mighty big surcharge when existing projects (e.g. all-day service on Georgetown and Milton) can help intensification in the west end instead without the premium.

Metrolinx's mandate is to enable regional transportation, not encourage intensification. Intensification should occur naturally. If the government wants to help it along, create another Crown Corporation to buy low-density properties adjacent to existing great spaces. Leave the Metrolinx it's transit focus, or it'll be watered down by every other interest group.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

I can understand why some people are not keen on spending the money for a rail line to Peterborough. I also think that the project could be tweaked so that it offers more value for the money.

However, I think the project is still justified because it still serves an important purpose. Peterborough is a modest, but decent sized city with no rail service. In fact there are plenty of examples of cities that have no rail service but should (Trois-Riviere, Sherbrooke, Carelton Place and Perth (to a somewhat smaller degree), to name some. If rail transit is to gain momentum it can't just focus on HSR proposals, or commuter/regional rail systems, or serving underserved cities (Guelph and Kitchener/Waterloo come to mind as perfect examples of cities that should have vastly improved rail service), but also building links into new areas.

There are a lot of projects that need to be done in all regions and all cities in Canada. Peterborough is not exactly cheap, but it is necessary and valid. It shouldn't be about fighting over what amount of funding exists today, but rather, finding a better balance and investing in projects that gain the kind of support that will make more people, everywhere, support higher levels of funding. Peterborough does that by showing other underserved or without service communities that they can also directly (and indirectly through increased connections to other cities and communities) benefit from rail infrastructure investment.

Edit: FWIW I think the idea of a new line that goes from Peterborough into Port Hope and then takes Lakeshore the rest of the way is probably an idea worth exploring. Take the same money you would invest in the current proposed route and instead use it towards upgrading Lakeshore into Port Hope and then build a line (which would largely just have to be single track with well placed sidings) from there into Peterborough. The investment would serve more people and it also has the benefit of allowing people from Peterborough to transfer to east bound VIA trains at Port Hope, which makes the line that much more useful. i know Metrolinx has looked at extending GO rail service out to Bowmanville so it is not as though the idea of extending Lakeshore some of the way hasn't allready been considered.

 

[Mapleson]

I completely agree Peterborough fits into the larger rail transit picture. I agree that funding rationale needs advocacy and people will benefit by increased public involvement and desire for transit. I also believe that we cannot clearly show a public benefit in changing this without being able to show where we are and where we want to be. We need a full picture of Canada's needs. Basically, we need a new social contract.

I would say there are about $300 billion worth of infrastructure maintainance, improvements, and expansion necessary to prepare Canada for the second half of the 21st century ($50b being for Toronto regional transit). Until we at least pretend to be addressing the problem completely, infrastructure investment will lag need; thereby, increases the need to fund those with the highest return first.

Personally, I like GO's system of incremental expansion. The Lakeshore East expansion from Oshawa to Bowmanville will provide an eastern rail maintainance hub in Whitby. Incrementally, you could service Newcastle, and then Port Hope/Cobourg. This would put the Port Hope-Peterborough link around the same funding priority as say Port Hope-Belleville.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I personally would not want Go to incrementally expand out into Peterborough. The future of Go should be a regional rail, closer to a metro than "train" just as the Paris RER is. Ontario definitely needs it's own interurban provider, but Go should not fit the bill. Go needs to stay within the GGH so it can be specialized in serving metro-style regional rail, and politically staying within the GGH while under the jurisdiction of Metrolinx.

Hah, $300 billion worth of infrastructure for Canada in the 21st century? The country probably needs at least $200 billion in infrastructure right now. I suppose that we have differentiating views on how Canada will evolve this century. I thoroughly believe that Canadians will step up and see how great this country could be, and rise to near-US level on the backs of immigration and exploding foreign markets. Of course, this will take tonnes of political will, but the pieces are all there in the puzzle, and we're at a huge advantage when compared to almost any other country on the world. We have the capacity to hold more immigrants, both politically through being one of the least racialized countries in the entire world, and by the fact that we're the 2nd largest country in the world. Canada's population could probably pass 100 million within 50 years, and Canadians could still not see the disadvantages. Our economy would be one of the most powerful in the world, and it would be a more vibrant country to live in, something to set us apart from anywhere else in the world.

So if that were to happen, the GGH might have a population of 20 million. The country would maintain it's density hugging the US border, and we could potentially get Eastern US/European type density patterns evolving in the southern prairies, and very dense rural areas in Southern Ontario. That'll all require tonnes of transportation infrastructure, revamping train routes, building roads (though hopefully we'll be able to build the country in a green, sustainable, human-oriented way too,) airports, ports, and so on. I could see why one would have a view that Canada might peak 50 million by the end of this century, but I think that we need to broaden our horizons and see what the country can really become.

More on-topic though, that Oshawa-Peterborough thing would be much better served by VIA, or some kind of post-VIA monster that actually provides a good service. Even at it's current density, Southern Ontario and Quebec could warrant European-style Rail with express HSR, regional trains, and trains servicing all those tiny little towns. While that possibility gets dismissed by pessimistic politicians that believe we don't deserve anything good, that'd be a great route for VIA to serve in it's current state. Correct me if I'm wrong, but VIA actually served Peterborough not too long ago, did it not? Maybe Ontario could fix up the track and donate some provincial money to keep the service going. I'm just worried because the way I see Go, it really doesn't fit the bill for that kind of service.

 

[Mapleson]

I see VIA as the logical service provider of rail service to Peterborough, but they have been fundamentally FUBARed since their creation. When I was picturing GO service to Peterborough as part of the GTHA region, which by that point would including everything west to London and crosslinks between. In the meantime, I'm absolutely for GO sticking to the GTHA, but once they have a strong central network core, it's logical to improve key feeder links. At the moment as far as passenger rail goes your choices of governing body are GO, VIA, or a new rinky-dink independent.

My $300 billion was over the next 40 years in catching up. I have high hopes for Canada and the world's future, but I do keep those dreams destinctly seperate from what I believe is achievable given the state of the world we live in.

Your vision of what Canada could be sounds very much like what I believe is achievable. I've a somewhat formulated plan of key elements that have to be incorporated into Government 2.0. I'll get around to typing it up soon.

Canada's domestic (born in Canada) population has been on the decline for 50 years. In another 50 years, domestic Canadians will represent less than 1/3 of the work force without increasing the net immigration rate over 0.75%. We don't have the capacity at the moment just to throw the door open to millions of new arrivals every year. A generation, 20 years, would see Canada ready to open the flood gates more than a crack; by 2111 Canada could have 1% of global population of half a billion people.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

Who actually serves Peterborough, GO or VIA, doesn't really matter too much. Since Peterborough hasn't been served in two decades (its service was ended in 1990) it is hard to guess just what traveller preferences and patterns will be. Having GO serve it with a limited stop train would seem to make the most sense to start off with. But if most of the trips were just Peterborough to Union Station and few stops in between, maybe VIA could replace/supplement some service. Either way, that is something that is easy enough to modify once service starts.

Same with rail agencies in general. I am sure in the next 20 years there will be many changes. VIA may splinter into a HSR division (TGV Canada has long been a favorite name of mine) and a transcontinental/remote services division. Ontario and Quebec could have their own provincial agencies for smaller centres not on the HSR line (Peterborough being a good example), leaving GO and AMT for the metro regions. Or GO and AMT could simply be expanded to cover all of their provinces.

Especially right now those structures dont really matter. They will definitely change in time, but when it makes sense. Right now the most important part is building the infrastructure. Upgrading lines, electrification, grade separations, HSR network, rail station upgrades. Once you have the network in place then service structures and rolling stock, to a certain degree, can be tweaked as needed.

 

[hbl33]

IIRC, AMT is limited to Montreal and its CMA. There is no need to expand its network beyond its area (though I wonder if rail link is possible to Gatineau).
GO, on the other hand, is more loose in definition. As a transit agency serving mostly Southern Ontario, London, Waterloo/Kitchener/Cambridge, Windsor, Ottawa and Niagara should get some GO services.
Both transit agencies are doing well ahead, and I hope GO is bringing all-day regional rail and a separate express bus to Square One. Right now commuting back from Union to SQ1 is slow, with a stop at Dixie and Cooksville before reaching the final destination.

 

[Mapleson]

As a reminder, GO Transit stands for Government of Ontario Transit. Metrolinx's mandate is current limited to the extended GGH though.

As for your question about the Milton line, there should be all-day and express service by 2021.

 

[Second_in_pie]

My $300 billion was over the next 40 years in catching up. I have high hopes for Canada and the world's future, but I do keep those dreams destinctly seperate from what I believe is achievable given the state of the world we live in.

Your vision of what Canada could be sounds very much like what I believe is achievable. I've a somewhat formulated plan of key elements that have to be incorporated into Government 2.0. I'll get around to typing it up soon.

Canada's domestic (born in Canada) population has been on the decline for 50 years. In another 50 years, domestic Canadians will represent less than 1/3 of the work force without increasing the net immigration rate over 0.75%. We don't have the capacity at the moment just to throw the door open to millions of new arrivals every year. A generation, 20 years, would see Canada ready to open the flood gates more than a crack; by 2111 Canada could have 1% of global population of half a billion people.

My thoughts exactly. But we definitely need to start planning now, and start spending that $300 billion on recovering our nationwide infrastructure debt. From city transit to railways to highways to waterways, we've got tonnes to do. I think that 15-20 years is a reasonable time to begin to open the flood gates as well.

Who actually serves Peterborough, GO or VIA, doesn't really matter too much. Since Peterborough hasn't been served in two decades (its service was ended in 1990) it is hard to guess just what traveller preferences and patterns will be. Having GO serve it with a limited stop train would seem to make the most sense to start off with. But if most of the trips were just Peterborough to Union Station and few stops in between, maybe VIA could replace/supplement some service. Either way, that is something that is easy enough to modify once service starts.

It's been that long?! I suppose that would make sense then. I believe that both rail connections are of equal merit, though the Northernly rail line in need of repair fits the bill much better for VIA than Go, while branching off from Oshawa might be easier to do by just running a few Go trains up to Peterborough. I actually see possibilities happening by connecting Peterborough with Durham and Northumberland, both for industry and people movement.

 

[nrb]

My thoughts exactly. But we definitely need to start planning now, and start spending that $300 billion on recovering our nationwide infrastructure debt. From city transit to railways to highways to waterways, we've got tonnes to do. I think that 15-20 years is a reasonable time to begin to open the flood gates as well.

It's been that long?! I suppose that would make sense then. I believe that both rail connections are of equal merit, though the Northernly rail line in need of repair fits the bill much better for VIA than Go, while branching off from Oshawa might be easier to do by just running a few Go trains up to Peterborough. I actually see possibilities happening by connecting Peterborough with Durham and Northumberland, both for industry and people movement.

They've already basically done this with the GO bus from peterborough to oshawa.

 

[Jonny5]

Amazing that GO Transit will have to schedule it's rush hour trains at Union around a 3 car train carrying 20 people operated by a charity.

 

[lead82]

Wow, can't believe this is happening. It will be interesting to see if this generates much usage. If it's operated by a charity or a separate company from VIA or GO, what will the fares be like? As a commuter service the fare can't be more than $10-12 each way. That would require subsidy. A higher fare would not attract much usage as it is far cheaper to drive.

Anyone know when the 407 extension is supposed to be completed?

 

[EnviroTO]

I had seen this in the news many months ago. I'm surprised if it didn't get mentioned in one of the threads but it isn't mentioned in the main one here. There hasn't been any notice of progress in 5 months though. For a plan with such an aggressive timeline you would think there would be an update.