Ottawa Transit Developments

[Kyle Campbell]

Speaking of which, anyone feel a Thales Sel Trac curse coming?
Metro LRT signal mayhem
Ottawa LRT chaos
Scarborough RT dying
Who knows with the Finch West LRT and SkyTrain.

Well I think the Canada line uses seltrac, and from a signaling standpoint it was a big success even at launch. In that case though there wasn't much in the way of teething problems, the realization that a 2 car subway with 40m platforms is horribly undersized even at high frequencies only came home to roost much later. I feel the REM in Montreal might end up being thought of a somewhat less undersized Canada line.

 

[Steve X]

It's not, but "the train" is the fault of everything at the moment, even if the problem is a bus. The problems with the Citadis trains are real, but not that different than launch issues with other models, but every single fault with OC Transpo is being compounded right now, and a lot of it is due to the fact all the network changes, etc are due to the train. It's also is made to seem even worse if you are watching from the outside, since all you get is a steady stream of bad news. A delay of a few minutes for a medical emergency in Toronto or Montreal would get a shrug, but there is the same amount of screaming in Ottawa as a major delay. People now scream about delays on Line 2, despite it being around for almost 20 years and nobody noticing delays happened on it before.

It's a vicious cycle and right now the city is playing finger pointing rather than dealing with calming things down. Watson and Manconi aren't taking ownership of the problems, first there was the blame the passengers story and strict fines for door holders, now it's blame everything under the sun on RTG/RTM whether it's rail related or not.

If you want to put it that way, the trains are the problem when someone jams the doors, pushes the emergency alarm and jumps in front of them. Yes, it's the trains. Let's don't calculate ridership properly, order half as many trains and have everyone packed like sardine on day one. Let's build the bus terminals as cheap as possible and end up with everyone packed on the platform and standing on stairs. Now if we don't run any trains, all the problem would been solved. Nothing wrong with Ottawa, OC Transpo or RTG except Alstom.

From what I have heard, Ottawa didn't have a single clue to how build a LRT line and simply let RTG decide everything in hopes they are the experts. They hired the wrong experts and now everything isn't working together properly as a system.

Let's not compare this to the TTC. The TTC is always as broken as Ottawa as the system is really old. People just live with it and not make a big fuss on the media. In comparison to the TTC, nope nothing is wrong with the Ottawa or the trains. All these delays are normal, just live with it.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

If you want to put it that way, the trains are the problem when someone jams the doors, pushes the emergency alarm and jumps in front of them. Yes, it's the trains. Let's don't calculate ridership properly, order half as many trains and have everyone packed like sardine on day one. Let's build the bus terminals as cheap as possible and end up with everyone packed on the platform and standing on stairs. Now if we don't run any trains, all the problem would been solved. Nothing wrong with Ottawa, OC Transpo or RTG except Alstom.

From what I have heard, Ottawa didn't have a single clue to how build a LRT line and simply let RTG decide everything in hopes they are the experts. They hired the wrong experts and now everything isn't working together properly as a system.

Let's not compare this to the TTC. The TTC is always as broken as Ottawa as the system is really old. People just live with it and not make a big fuss on the media. In comparison to the TTC, nope nothing is wrong with the Ottawa or the trains. All these delays are normal, just live with it.

You misunderstand what I'm saying, all those problems are true, though I wouldn't put it so melodramatically. The biggest problem is not enough trains at peak, which is mismanagement on OC Transpo's part, as is the bus network as is the bus loop design OC Transpo signed off on knowing full well how to run a bus transfer station.

The technical glitches with the trains, which are on Alstom have made the other problems all worse, but the city is seizing on that problem to deflect responsibility for all others. If the trains launched at the 3 minute rush hour frequency expected rather than 4-5ish minutes, there would be some slack in the system to absorb delays which are entirely predictable. Larger trains could have fixed that theoretically too, but Ottawa shouldn't need 6 car TR sized trains for a city of 1 million. But since we have no slack any delay can cause severe overcrowding at stations, which is something more mature systems like the TTC are only hitting now decades in since they launched with enough capacity, not just barely enough as long as nothing goes wrong.

The media is now missing the forest for the trees and the technical glitches with the trains are being blamed as the source of all problems, and the city is actively encouraging this view to deflect from far larger structural problems with OC Transpo itself.

Eventually the glitches will get fixed and more trains will be added to the line, but that doesn't magically fix everything else. In fact for years OC Transpo said the train would magically fix everything wrong with their absymal reliability (and safety) record. Now it hasn't, so the city is saying look over there.

I'm quite sure we will see similar tales of woe over in Montreal when it launches. Like Ottawa, it can only work when everything is in alignment, I think the margin for error is tiny.

I don't think we'll see the same with the crosstown though. Down the line it may prove to be over capacity, but I don't think a delay on the crosstown will be as disasterous.

While RTG may have done some cheap things, it was the city itself that wanted it that way, the mantra of "on time on budget" was paramount.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

A concrete example. The venerable 95 bus route was replaced with Rapid route 39. The 39, despite being the rapid transit service to Orleans for the next 6 years runs every 30(!) minutes except at peak. Nothing they do west of Blair would fix that mess.

 

[TransitBart]

Is the issue with enough trains “don’t own enough” or “haven’t got all we bought into service yet”?

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Is the issue with enough trains “don’t own enough” or “haven’t got all we bought into service yet”?

Both

There's only 13 consistently in service, sometimes 14. There's 18 finished pairs total, plus another 4 languishing incomplete in the shed, which can't get finished because they are too busy with trying to keep enough of the existing ones in service and need the other 4 finished pairs as spares. The city isn't trying to peddle the whole "we only need 13" story anymore.

But even if they had magical fairy dust, and 90 second headways, big problem is the bus/train connection is poorly designed, as the terminals at Blair and Tunney's ate temporary (though this doesn't explain Hurdman).

Outside of rush hour, things are peachy, and during rush hour (I ride Hurdman to Parliament) it's passable. Those extra trains though would make it so much better, but still doesn't fix the fact the bus system is actually much worse than before LRT. Frequencies across the board are down, and the "frequent" routes often had their service cut to match the 15 minute standard. Rapid routes aren't rapid or frequent at all often. Because this all started with LRT is why people blame the train, even though the train itself isn't the problem. So you can imagine how cranky some people are with a much longer commute when delays hit.

 

[Steve X]

Is the issue with enough trains “don’t own enough” or “haven’t got all we bought into service yet”?

The first problem is they bought the wrong trains. It's not even a light rail line. They should have used narrow subway trains like Montreal. It would been cheaper too. I could imagine the lrt idea stuck around from the cancelled on street lrt lines and Alstom have an opportunity to showcase their Citadis lrvs to North America.

2nd is the lack of trains. They needed something closer to 20 trains an hour which they don't have yet until more gets delivered for phase 2.

3rd is the platform is too short. Since they are using narrower than modern subway trains, Sheppard Line size platforms would carry less passenger than Sheppard. I believed the original plans called for longer platforms but RTG shorten them.

 

[lrt's friend]

You're forgetting the first part. Looking at the transit maps of most cities, there are clear alternatives, even if these alternatives are sometimes (Read: always) inconvenient. Ottawa basically had/has the one corridor for trips involving anything from Tunney's to Blair. People have to transfer at some point. Also, I think people are blaming the LRT because it's easy to blame and it's new. It's definitely better than the old bus system. Like stated before, people hate transfers. Is the LRT kind of bad? Yes. But it's not as terrible as people say.

Hopefully, the train will become more reliable. People will then stop complaining. I have commented about the lack of redundancy or parallel service, which is a flaw with the current plan.

Both

There's only 13 consistently in service, sometimes 14. There's 18 finished pairs total, plus another 4 languishing incomplete in the shed, which can't get finished because they are too busy with trying to keep enough of the existing ones in service and need the other 4 finished pairs as spares. The city isn't trying to peddle the whole "we only need 13" story anymore.

But even if they had magical fairy dust, and 90 second headways, big problem is the bus/train connection is poorly designed, as the terminals at Blair and Tunney's ate temporary (though this doesn't explain Hurdman).

Outside of rush hour, things are peachy, and during rush hour (I ride Hurdman to Parliament) it's passable. Those extra trains though would make it so much better, but still doesn't fix the fact the bus system is actually much worse than before LRT. Frequencies across the board are down, and the "frequent" routes often had their service cut to match the 15 minute standard. Rapid routes aren't rapid or frequent at all often. Because this all started with LRT is why people blame the train, even though the train itself isn't the problem. So you can imagine how cranky some people are with a much longer commute when delays hit.

The issue with bus frequency is a bone of contention, and the solutions don't address poor off-peak frequency even on the most popular routes. The solutions only beef up service during peak periods so many of the problems aren't going away. The issue of train delays make for unreliable transfers, even if the delays are only a few minutes. If your bus only departs every 30 minutes, even a brief train delay can extend travel times by 30 minutes plus the obvious frustration of waiting at a transfer station with few if any retail services. Even in peak periods, bus departures are often only every 30 minutes on many routes. Any unpredictability will make it very difficult to plan a trip home.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The LRT in Ottawa opened on Sept. 14, 2019.

The last full revenue day of streetcar service in Ottawa was April 30, 1959. (On May 2, 1959, an estimated 25,000 people lined the route as streetcars took one last tour through the city.) From link.

That's 60 years, 4 months, 15 days between the two dates. They lost a lot of experience using any kind of rail vehicles. We do get a little rusty.

 

[lrt's friend]

The LRT in Ottawa opened on Sept. 14, 2019.

The last full revenue day of streetcar service in Ottawa was April 30, 1959. (On May 2, 1959, an estimated 25,000 people lined the route as streetcars took one last tour through the city.) From link.

That's 60 years, 4 months, 15 days between the two dates. They lost a lot of experience using any kind of rail vehicles. We do get a little rusty.

You have forgotten that the Trillium Line has been operating since 2001.

 

[Steve X]

You have forgotten that the Trillium Line has been operating since 2001.

That isn't really classified as a LRT. It uses mainline heavy rail trains on a freight track regulated by Transport Canada.

 

[Allandale25]

Speaking of which, anyone feel a Thales Sel Trac curse coming?
Metro LRT signal mayhem
Ottawa LRT chaos
Scarborough RT dying
Who knows with the Finch West LRT and SkyTrain.

How were they involved in the RT? Wasn't aware.

 

[Coolstar]

How were they involved in the RT? Wasn't aware.

It's the signalling system for the RT.

 

[smallspy]

Speaking of which, anyone feel a Thales Sel Trac curse coming?
Metro LRT signal mayhem
Ottawa LRT chaos
Scarborough RT dying
Who knows with the Finch West LRT and SkyTrain.

You also forgot about the Muni Metro, and the fun that San Fran went through. You should read up on it, it makes for some great fun.

All that said, it is highly unlikely that the Finch West LRT will use the whole "full fat" version of SELTRAC, and is likely a different system for switch control and signal priority. That is a very far cry from a moving-block ATC/ATO system.

And in fairness to Ottawa and Thales, very little of Ottawa's trouble can be traced back to the signal system.

Well I think the Canada line uses seltrac, and from a signaling standpoint it was a big success even at launch. In that case though there wasn't much in the way of teething problems, the realization that a 2 car subway with 40m platforms is horribly undersized even at high frequencies only came home to roost much later. I feel the REM in Montreal might end up being thought of a somewhat less undersized Canada line.

The Canada Line does use SELTRAC, and it was a greenfield installation which makes everyone's life far easier.

Many of the problematic installations of SELTRAC have been overlays or brownfield installations.

Dan

 

[TransitBart]

Both

There's only 13 consistently in service, sometimes 14. There's 18 finished pairs total, plus another 4 languishing incomplete in the shed, which can't get finished because they are too busy with trying to keep enough of the existing ones in service and need the other 4 finished pairs as spares. The city isn't trying to peddle the whole "we only need 13" story anymore.

But even if they had magical fairy dust, and 90 second headways, big problem is the bus/train connection is poorly designed, as the terminals at Blair and Tunney's ate temporary (though this doesn't explain Hurdman).

Outside of rush hour, things are peachy, and during rush hour (I ride Hurdman to Parliament) it's passable. Those extra trains though would make it so much better, but still doesn't fix the fact the bus system is actually much worse than before LRT. Frequencies across the board are down, and the "frequent" routes often had their service cut to match the 15 minute standard. Rapid routes aren't rapid or frequent at all often. Because this all started with LRT is why people blame the train, even though the train itself isn't the problem. So you can imagine how cranky some people are with a much longer commute when delays hit.

Let's see if I have this clear.

1. There are 18 finished pairs and 4 more unfinished pairs for a total of 22 pairs and 44 vehicles on the ground at the Belfast yard.
2. Only 13 pairs are consistently in service.

My further questions.
i) How many consists need to be in service to provide the 3 min service you quoted?
ii) Since phase II is now under construction, has a further tranche of vehicles been ordered?

One comment. Short term, these are teething troubles and I'd be as grouchy as anyone if my commute were a new fresh hell. But think forward to the day when Phase II is complete on the Ottawa side and the Gatineau region completes an LRT on that side, and the two are properly inter-networked. These two cities will have a nice little transit network going.

A while back someone asked me if I had ever taken transit in Ottawa and I have not. But I drive into the city a couple times a year and for a city its size, it seems to have nightmare amounts of car traffic. It's good that public transit take up is so good, because there is not room for a lot more cars on the roads of our national capital.