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Ottawa Transit Developments

I'm not sure how signaling factors here, since the trains are running ATO, so that's theoretically better then fixed block. We should be able to hit 15kpphd and 26 trains per hour now, if we actually had enough vehicles. There's also an allowance for a 5th module per vehicle, bringing it up to 660 per train and a 24.7 ppphd design max.

All that being said, high floor would allow better dwell times, better interior configurations and even more capacity, but it should be sufficient given Ottawa's predicted ridership and population growth, it's not as undersized as you think.

Nobody seems to build such a system as you are proposing these days though. Even Toronto is likely to get something high floor but much narrower and shorter for the Ontario line then the Sheppard subway. The perception of traditional subways as being super expensive, along with short 30 year planning horizons means nobody builds for the 50 years out plan. Vancouver had a 30 year window for the skytrain, and now 30 years out it's pretty much out of options to easily expand. The Canada line of course was even more short sighted.

I'm not dismissing that your plan is better, I'm just saying it's not politically feasible these days.
 
Kyle Campbell said:
I'm not sure how signaling factors here, since the trains are running ATO, so that's theoretically better then fixed block. We should be able to hit 15kpphd and 26 trains per hour now, if we actually had enough vehicles. There's also an allowance for a 5th module per vehicle, bringing it up to 660 per train and a 24.7 ppphd design max.

All that being said, high floor would allow better dwell times, better interior configurations and even more capacity, but it should be sufficient given Ottawa's predicted ridership and population growth, it's not as undersized as you think.

Nobody seems to build such a system as you are proposing these days though. Even Toronto is likely to get something high floor but much narrower and shorter for the Ontario line then the Sheppard subway. The perception of traditional subways as being super expensive, along with short 30 year planning horizons means nobody builds for the 50 years out plan. Vancouver had a 30 year window for the skytrain, and now 30 years out it's pretty much out of options to easily expand. The Canada line of course was even more short sighted.

I'm not dismissing that your plan is better, I'm just saying it's not politically feasible these days.
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The irony is that the rolling stock itself has little to nothing to do with the overall cost, rather, the amount (and type) of grade-separation and size/complexity of stations do. Other factors such as geology and depth do play a role, but not really when it comes to laying the tracks. They more-so affect the station's overall complexity. Sure, you can save a few hundred million dollars by digging narrower tunnels, but you'll spend even more money building longer platforms.

Yes, subways are expensive, but all grade-separated rapid transit is expensive. Politicians have to stop believing "newer" technologies will save money because all they do is optimize capacities for opening day (and maybe 10-year) ridership levels. There's nothing fundamentally 'new' about a small train, all the "new" technology can be applied to existing rolling stock. Politicians just want an excuse to build what is perceived to be the "newest, cheapest, and most modern" systems, when really, they're just overcomplicating things.
 
Streety McCarface said:
2 Citadis trains can carry 600 passengers (or 2.26 passengers per square meter), compared to a 4-Car TR train which can carry 720 passengers (but this isn't a true crush-load number, it's actually closer to 800+), or 2.25 passengers per square meter. Assuming they run at the same frequencies, the TR carries 20% more. However, a fixed block signal system can get frequencies up to about 26 trains per hour, or capacity of 18,720 PPHPD, compared to the 12.5K PPHPD on the Confederation Line. This is just with fixed block signalling, with ATP, the capacities of the subway up to 25.2K PPHPD. Remember, train capacity isn't everything. Door spacing, dwell times, and frequency of service play a huge role. Ottawa lost all these benefits by going with low floor narrow stock (though admittedly, their tunnels were narrower, so they may have saved some money there).
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I'm having doubts the 48m Citadis can carry 300 passengers under regular TTC loading. People like their privacy in Canada plus when factoring the winter size jacket, baggage and obsiteity rate into the equation, the number is significantly less. Take TTC's number of 130 * 1.6 (30 vs 48m) * 1.2 (flexity vs citadis spacing efficiency) = 250. That would like be a more realistic number than 300.

If Ottawa went with a narrow profile high floor train, they would have gone with more permeter or single seat allow an increase of standing space. The could have gone with a 4 car open gangway train similar to a shorter STM Azur train with steel wheel.
 
In my opinion, what kills the Citadis (as-is) isn't the low floor design. The wheel hubs don't have a huge impact on passenger capacity. Yes, it'll be slightly lower than a high floor vehicle, but it's been shown that the low floor vehicles can and will be able to carry enough people. With doors spaced between the hubs, they don't interrupt passenger flow (except at the ends of each car). Really, they work the same way Montreal's old stock did with standing areas located around doors with seating in between.

What kills it is the same as every other OC Transpo vehicle: a general overabundance of seats. Anyone who's ever taken OC Transpo has seen how they'll jam as many seats as physically possible into their vehicles, and the Citadis was no exception. The advertised max for the Citadis is 340 passengers/vehicle... we're configured for 300. And that's 100% in extra aisle seats all up and down the train.
 
i was recently in ottawa and i think the reporting that the lrt is a disaster is extremely overblown. the vehicles are comfortable and have really good acceleration. the stations are seamlessly integrated with the places of interest. oc transpo is also doing a lot of practical stuff to eliminate delays. when i took it during rush hour the driver was telling people to not force doors open and disperse along the platform. there are also guides at every station to help people. so yeah there were problems at first but oc transpo is proactively trying to eliminate them. there's a lot of focus on commuter trips and one can debate whether the network changes have made commutes better or worse but i think what gets lost is that the lrt massively improves short trips within the core. i envision the lrt capturing a lot of new riders taking short trips that would have otherwise walked or taken a taxi
 
I think that the breakdowns happening during rush hour every other day is the issue. If it breaks down at night, less people would care but if it's underperforming at peak demand, that's an issue.
 
the 'breakdowns' happen at peak because the peak demand is the cause of the breakdowns and as i wrote previously oc transpo (as in the people actually operating the system, not upper management etc) is not standing still on the issue. i do not believe the breakdowns happen every other day either
 
dad pad said:
the 'breakdowns' happen at peak because the peak demand is the cause of the breakdowns and as i wrote previously oc transpo (as in the people actually operating the system, not upper management etc) is not standing still on the issue. i do not believe the breakdowns happen every other day either
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The point is that this should not happen, especially for a new system that has been running for almost 3 months now.

If capacities are great enough during the peak periods that trains are regularly overcrowded and are breaking down as a result of that overcrowding on an almost-daily basis, they underbuilt the line.
 
the trains are not breaking down due to overcrowding though. what seems to be happening is that people are not dispersing along the platforms and are trying to get in all through one door. once the door fails it takes half an hour to fix it. i agree that this shouldn't happen but i'm just pointing out that the people operating the line are doing everything they realistically can to mitigate the situation. imo they did not underbuild the line: like others have said this has much more to due with the ottawa municipal government thinking that they could cancel many more bus routes to save money than was advisable and funnel everyone into tunney's pasture instead

like i get this is an infrastructure forum but the solution to a problem isn't always more capital investment.
 
Streety McCarface said:
The point is that this should not happen, especially for a new system that has been running for almost 3 months now.

If capacities are great enough during the peak periods that trains are regularly overcrowded and are breaking down as a result of that overcrowding on an almost-daily basis, they underbuilt the line.
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No, the door issues aren't the main problem anymore. They seem to be having switch and computer problems now, which are more random, but very disruptive during rush hour. We are at 70 hours since the last incident though so maybe we're finally turning a corner. They seem to be getting farther apart now, but it would be nice to make it a week at least
 
This tweet sort of explains the uphill battle OC Transpo faces. The transitway gave people a single seat ride right from their door to their office for cheap. It just couldn't scale anymore, but taking it away is the biggest source of backlash. Combine it with the still too frequent train troubles and you can see why outer suburb people are especially livid. People are having a hard time with changes that come with getting into big city territory. While traffic is still easy in Ottawa compared to the GTA, it's now quite common to get into traffic jams outside peak hours, which was something unheard of even a decade ago.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1199751127081848832
 
The problems relate to both trains and buses. The end result is that commute times for too many people are significantly longer than before. This is unacceptable. We can't be spending billions to achieve worse service.
 
lrt's friend said:
The problems relate to both trains and buses. The end result is that commute times for too many people are significantly longer than before. This is unacceptable. We can't be spending billions to achieve worse service.
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The problem in Ottawa is that the accountants are running the transit service.
 
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