Ontario Line North of Eglinton (was Relief Line North) (Speculation)

[Midtown Urbanist]

I'm not clear.
B2 was the plan before the switch to be partially under Carlaw. Did the switch change the ridership numbers in any way?

As I recall, aquateam has the details correct. City Planning were going for B1 alignment, until lobbying from First Gulf and manoeuvring for Tory's SmartTrack station led to the decision of B2 alignment.

The Carlaw switch occurred after, as a result of community meetings.

 

[gweed123]

As I recall, aquateam has the details correct. City Planning were going for B1 alignment, until lobbying from First Gulf and manoeuvring for Tory's SmartTrack station led to the decision of B2 alignment.

The Carlaw switch occurred after, as a result of community meetings.

Correct. The Carlaw alignment change was the last part of the alignment to be 'nailed down', so to speak. The alignment has remained consistent since it was approved by Council in May 2017. (I even wrote a UT article on it, haha).

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Feedback I offered in the meetings were the maps that outlinehd the route options show a bias towards the Vic Park alignment (Option 5-6) by ignoring the Smart Track route that will be 3.3km east of Vic Park. The goal of the DRL is to off-load Yonge. Place it too far east and many potential riders will continue to use the Yonge Subway. Further, potential DRL subway riders that are commuting to downtown jobs may be better served by Smart Track. The alignment map should be expanded to show transit routes east of Vic Park.

This is a good point to raise.

Stoufville line is planned for "two-way all-day between Mount joy and Union, fifteen minute service or better between Unionville and Union". The Metrolinx business case has its ridership increasing from 3,900,000 annual riders to 16,500,000 annual riders as per below. These details make me more hesitant about Victoria Park as the corridor of choice.

Even just looking at existing surface transit ridership numbers, Don Mills bus hosts 38,000 daily riders, compared to Victoria Park's 24,000 daily riders.

 

[gweed123]

Even just looking at existing surface transit ridership numbers, Don Mills bus hosts 38,000 daily riders, compared to Victoria Park's 24,000 daily riders.

While I agree with the premise of the Stouffville Line effectively becoming an interceptor subway, using bus ridership numbers in this case may be a bit misleading. The Don Mills bus has the advantage of bus lanes (or at least HOV lanes) for a substantial portion of it's route, and two bridges on which it doesn't have to stop. The Victoria Park bus needs to slog down a mixed-traffic urban arterial for its entire length. Passengers on that corridor may be more inclined to take an E-W bus to the Yonge Line, while those on Don Mills may prefer to go south instead.

 

[steveintoronto]

While I agree with Steve that Melbourne is a generation ahead of Toronto on transit - not that that’s so hard - how can it have such slow trams when they run on their own rights of way?

Been discussed many times and detailed in these forums.(Especially the King Pilot Project one) Pedestrians are uncontrolled on the malls, and 8 kph speed limits are imposed on the trams. For off the malls, it's mixed traffic. Toronto and Melbourne are the two outliers in world tram systems in sharing that 'fate'.

Melbourne's trams among slowest in the world - ABC News (Australian ...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05.../melbourne-trams...slowest-in...world/854122...
May 18, 2017 - Melbourne's trams among slowest in the world. Melbourne's tram services are among the slowest in the world, new figures have revealed.

Melbourne has longest yet slowest tram network in the world: study ...
www.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-05/19/c_136297434.htm
May 19, 2017 - Melbourne has longest yet slowest tram network in the world: study. SYDNEY, May 19 (Xinhua) -- Trams operating on Melbourne's iconic network are among the slowest in the world, a survey has found.
You're Not Just Imagining It, Melbourne Trams Are Among the World's ...
https://www.complex.com/life/2017/05/melbournes-trams-among-the-worlds-slowest
May 18, 2017 - Ever taken the tram to work in the morning and joked to your friends that Melbourne's trams are the slowest vehicles on earth? Turns out, you're ...
Melbourne's trams among world's slowest. | SBS Your Language
https://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/.../melbournes-trams-among-worlds-slowest
Nov 24, 2016 - Melbourne's trams were among the slowest in the world with an average speed of just 16 kilometers per hour.
Melbourne's trams ranked from best to worst - Time Out
https://www.timeout.com/melbourne/.../melbournes-trams-ranked-from-best-to-worst-...
Aug 27, 2018 - In a list of things that are quintessentially Melbourne, trams sit up ... Not too much changed in tram world when Zeddy's little sister came into the world in 1984. ... the stairs are impossibly steep and the speed is impossibly slow.

Melbourne had it right all along: trams are the answer
https://www.smh.com.au › National › Opinion
Oct 17, 2016 - Partly it's the plodding pace – Melbourne trams shuffle along at an average ... of 16 km/h (making it the third slowest tram network in the world).
Patronage up but Melbourne trams still slowest in the world: will ...
https://www.foreground.com.au/.../patronage-up-but-melbourne-trams-still-slowest-in...
Oct 26, 2016 - Patronage up but Melbourne trams still slowest in the world: will intelligent transporttech help? Patronage figures for Melbourne's trams are the highest they have been in over 50 years – yet the network is as slow as it ever was.
[...]

First page Google for "Melbourne slowest trams in the world"

Toronto often comes up in the articles on slow Melbourne trams.

 

[steveintoronto]

Why not look at replacing this service RH GO line) with an extension of the Relief Line?

Or *combine them* using the best of each to bypass the Don Valley section save for VIA and GO trains, and if enough speed can be attained, GO DD stock into Union during peak bypassing all the local stops down the Relief Line.

Branches can be fanned out from the northern end of the Relief Line.

 

[jaybe]

While I agree with the premise of the Stouffville Line effectively becoming an interceptor subway, using bus ridership numbers in this case may be a bit misleading. The Don Mills bus has the advantage of bus lanes (or at least HOV lanes) for a substantial portion of it's route, and two bridges on which it doesn't have to stop. The Victoria Park bus needs to slog down a mixed-traffic urban arterial for its entire length. Passengers on that corridor may be more inclined to take an E-W bus to the Yonge Line, while those on Don Mills may prefer to go south instead.

Is it possible that Don Mills is busier than Vic Park because there are more people living along the corridor, more places of work, more places of interest and a post secondary school at one end of the corridor?

 

[gweed123]

Is it possible that Don Mills is busier than Vic Park because there are more people living along the corridor, more places of work, more places of interest and a post secondary school at one end of the corridor?

Oh absolutely. I'm just saying that only looking at ridership stats without looking at the characteristics of those bus routes may not yield an accurate comparison.

Consider this: If you turned the curb lanes on Victoria Park into dedicated bus lanes (effectively matching it in operating speed to the Don Mills bus), how much would ridership increase? Would the two routes be about equal then? I don't know the answer without detailed modelling, but until you can level out the operating characteristics difference, it's not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Oh absolutely. I'm just saying that only looking at ridership stats without looking at the characteristics of those bus routes may not yield an accurate comparison.

Consider this: If you turned the curb lanes on Victoria Park into dedicated bus lanes (effectively matching it in operating speed to the Don Mills bus), how much would ridership increase? Would the two routes be about equal then? I don't know the answer without detailed modelling, but until you can level out the operating characteristics difference, it's not an apples to apples comparison.

I wonder if the "peanut," and what seems to be a greater number of stoplights (especially closer to the subway station) off-sets the differences? It's hard to do apples to apples, even with the HOV/bus lanes, given the simple fact Vic Park is a straight shot and Don Mills isn't (it also curves a fair bit between Finch and Steeles). And because of how Sheppard curves, Vic Park hits it further south. So, it's hard to do apples-to-apples any way you slice...the apples...

There's lots that goes into ridership characteristics but unless you were specifically rerouting Vic Park buses to hit something like Seneca or maybe the interior of the Consumers Park employment area, I don't see any reason think bus lanes (and therefore speed) are a major factor in why so many more people are on the Don Mills routes instead.

 

[jaybe]

I wonder if the "peanut," and what seems to be a greater number of stoplights (especially closer to the subway station) off-sets the differences? It's hard to do apples to apples, even with the HOV/bus lanes, given the simple fact Vic Park is a straight shot and Don Mills isn't (it also curves a fair bit between Finch and Steeles). And because of how Sheppard curves, Vic Park hits it further north. So, it's hard to do apples-to-apples any way you slice...the apples...

There's lots that goes into ridership characteristics but unless you were specifically rerouting Vic Park buses to hit something like Seneca or maybe the interior of the Consumers Park employment area, I don't see any reason think bus lanes (and therefore speed) are a major factor in why so many more people are on the Don Mills routes instead.

Good point. The distance from Sheppard to Pape Station along Don Mills is 12km. The distance from Sheppard to the Danforth along Vic Park is 9.8km. Considering the longer distance, I can't imagine the HOV lanes make the Don Mills route a faster trip.

 

[UD2]

Second that. There is huge potential for massive intensification at those areas, and is already some density there. Victoria park does also have quite a bit of medium level density, however I think the upzoning potential is lower.

The most important node when it comes to redevelopment potential in the whole of North York is prehaps the Victoria Park and Sheppard node with its consumers rd redevelopment plan. There are a so many development modes avilable at York Mills, and Lawrence intersections.

Also the entire stretch along Victoria Park are h underitilized and have large potential to increase density.

I see Victoria Park to be a much better alignment than Don Mills to drive city building potential.

 

[UD2]

This is a good point to raise.

Even just looking at existing surface transit ridership numbers, Don Mills bus hosts 38,000 daily riders, compared to Victoria Park's 24,000 daily riders.

The Don Mills bus connects to the Sheppard Subway line, while only one variant of the Victoria Park bus make a 20 min detour to the station.

Also note that the Don Mills bus travels through Eglinton node as well as the Flemgington Thorncliffe Park area which are very dense. However this stat is not relevant as the RLN will most likely travel through these areas regardless of the choice beteeen Don Mills or Victoria Park.

So take away these above factors, the Vic Park bus would be at fairly closely on par with the Don Mills Bus.

 

[gweed123]

The most important node when it comes to redevelopment potential in the whole of North York is prehaps the Victoria Park and Sheppard node with its consumers rd redevelopment plan. There are a so many development modes avilable at York Mills, and Lawrence intersections.

Also the entire stretch along Victoria Park are h underitilized and have large potential to increase density.

I see Victoria Park to be a much better alignment than Don Mills to drive city building potential.

My preference would actually be to do both. Have a 'common' line up to just north of Eglinton, then have one branch veer east over the Don Valley using the CP ROW, then up Victoria Park to Sheppard. Turning west at Sheppard, it would connect to the existing Sheppard Subway at Don Mills.

The second branch would continue northward under Don Mills until just north of Lawrence, where it would emerge in the Richmond Hill ROW, and run parallel to it all the way to Richmond Hill Centre (dipping under the Doncaster Diamond).

Use the funding that would be allocated for the DRL North for the Victoria Park branch, and use the funding that would be allocated for the North Yonge extension for the Richmond Hill branch.

You wouldn't need super high frequencies on either of those branches (4 mins during peak and 5-6 mins outside of peak would do it), and with ATO the frequencies on the common section of the line could be managed pretty effectively.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

My preference would actually be to do both. Have a 'common' line up to just north of Eglinton, then have one branch veer east over the Don Valley using the CP ROW, then up Victoria Park to Sheppard. Turning west at Sheppard, it would connect to the existing Sheppard Subway at Don Mills.

The second branch would continue northward under Don Mills until just north of Lawrence, where it would emerge in the Richmond Hill ROW, and run parallel to it all the way to Richmond Hill Centre (dipping under the Doncaster Diamond).

Use the funding that would be allocated for the DRL North for the Victoria Park branch, and use the funding that would be allocated for the North Yonge extension for the Richmond Hill branch.

You wouldn't need super high frequencies on either of those branches (4 mins during peak and 5-6 mins outside of peak would do it), and with ATO the frequencies on the common section of the line could be managed pretty effectively.

This is the best design I have heard yet. This alignment still hits the Lawrence and Don Mills node, and the York Mills station would even be centrally located in the employment lands, allowing for intensification potential, as opposed to having 3/4 corners on a ravine/golf course.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

The most important node when it comes to redevelopment potential in the whole of North York is prehaps the Victoria Park and Sheppard node with its consumers rd redevelopment plan. There are a so many development modes avilable at York Mills, and Lawrence intersections.

Also the entire stretch along Victoria Park are h underitilized and have large potential to increase density.

I see Victoria Park to be a much better alignment than Don Mills to drive city building potential.

The Don Mills bus connects to the Sheppard Subway line, while only one variant of the Victoria Park bus make a 20 min detour to the station.

Also note that the Don Mills bus travels through Eglinton node as well as the Flemgington Thorncliffe Park area which are very dense. However this stat is not relevant as the RLN will most likely travel through these areas regardless of the choice beteeen Don Mills or Victoria Park.

So take away these above factors, the Vic Park bus would be at fairly closely on par with the Don Mills Bus.

I'm still skeptical.

I think there is a logical transition of destinations along the Don Mills corridor that explain its ridership. Going from north to south, you have, Seneca College, the Peanut, Fairview Mall (and Sheppard Subway), employment lands at York Mills, Shops at Don Mills, employment lands at Wynford, Eglinton & Don Mills (and Aga Khan), Ontario Science Centre, Flemingdon Park, Thorncliffe Park, Pape Village/Old East York, and finally, the Pape Station (and Danforth subway). With tons of (high density) residential, multiple large secondary schools, and community amenities spread throughout the corridor. The development of the Celestica site at Eglinton and Don Mills will add thousands of residents too and another major node.

Victoria Park isn't a bad corridor by any means, but it just doesn't seem to have that continuity of important anchors and destinations along its corridor compared to Don Mills. I appreciate that Consumers Road is an important node, but it is also an auto-centric one, with vast amounts of parking lots and the majority of the employment lands outside the comfortable 600m walking distance of the prospective station at Sheppard and Victoria Park.