OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[TOperson]

I think the biggest challenge any premier of this province would have if they wanted to lead Ontario in a direction away from casinos would be replacing the revenue streams. Long before any member of the Ontario public became addicted to gambling....our government(s) did and it is a hard habit to break.

I fully agree, and it's one of the reasons I've always been against gambling. We've already deep into the rabbit hole with alcohol and tobacco, and the current level of gambling. Going further down the hole seems like a really bad idea.

 

[Filip]

I fully agree, and it's one of the reasons I've always been against gambling. We've already deep into the rabbit hole with alcohol and tobacco, and the current level of gambling. Going further down the hole seems like a really bad idea.

Why ban things is my question... I like to smoke, drink and gamble in moderation.. Why should I be penalized for certain people's inability to control themselves?

Just like Trudeau famously said that the government has no place in the nation's bedrooms; neither does the government have a place in people's life choices.

 

[ttk77]

Why ban things is my question... I like to smoke, drink and gamble in moderation.. Why should I be penalized for certain people's inability to control themselves?

Just like Trudeau famously said that the government has no place in the nation's bedrooms; neither does the government have a place in people's life choices.

Agreed. Instituting bans is just about the worst possible method for changing human behaviour. People will do what they want regardless of what the law says. Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking and the war on drugs didn't stop people from smoking weed. Allowing the consumption of booze took a big chunk out of organized crime and stopped people from going blind off of home made moonshine. Controlling the trade allows the government to somewhat limit overconsumption by keeping prices high and helps add to government coffers at the same time.

If gambling were banned you'd likely see underground gambling establishments far more commonly than today and the government would have far less insight into how many people suffer from gambling problems. At least by allowing it and controlling it we can see who's in trouble and then direct some of the collected funds to helping them overcome their problems.

Having said that, the placement of casinos is a completely different discussion. While I really like the renderings of the Oxford proposal and think the buildings would make a spectacular architectural statement, I think the jury is still out on the potential effect of the casino portion on the neighbourhood. Lots of passionate arguments on both sides, but no one that I've seen has really been able to show a positive/negative/neutral impact on casinos and the neighbourhoods they're located in.

 

[RC8]

statcan.gc.ca
According to Stats Can Toronto's Unemployment rate December 2012 was 8.3%. 279,500 unemployed individuals. Compared to Ottawa at 6.6% and Hamilton at 5.9%, even Oshawa's unemployment rate is 7.3%. Nationally the rate was 7.1%.

I'd say the city is in need of the employment this project will bring to the city.

In that document 'Toronto' includes Mississauga, Oakville, Markham, Vaughan, Brampton, Richmond Hill, Aurora, Newmarket, etc. does it not?

And according to this downtown Toronto actually has the fastest job growth in the City of Toronto. Etobicoke (Ford's jewel and home to Woodbine racetrack) was the only part of Toronto to have less jobs in 2011 than in 2006.

At the Cityplace resident's association there was a vote where only one in about 100 people voted in favour of a casino. I believe that people in Trinity-Spadina and Toronto Centre are overwhelmingly opposed to the idea.

So are you suggesting that the government should impose a megacasino over an unwilling affluent population in the most prosperous part of the city so that we can help out underperforming sectors of our economy? How bloody communist of you.

Here's a shocking idea, let downtown continue to create jobs like it has over the past decade and let's focus our efforts elsewhere. This casino is just an attempt to steal more money from Toronto and distribute it around the province.

I demand a study showing how much money the city would make if instead of a casino we got an Eaton Centre type development with a convention centre, a planetarium, 2 office towers, 2 residential towers, and a new hotel where MTCC currently sits. Otherwise we may as well give sole-sourced contracts to everyone, and no one with any business experience would do that.

 

[Filip]

In that document 'Toronto' includes Mississauga, Oakville, Markham, Vaughan, Brampton, Richmond Hill, Aurora, Newmarket, etc. does it not?

And according to this downtown Toronto actually has the fastest job growth in the City of Toronto. Etobicoke (Ford's jewel and home to Woodbine racetrack) was the only part of Toronto to have less jobs in 2011 than in 2006.

At the Cityplace resident's association there was a vote where only one in about 100 people voted in favour of a casino. I believe that people in Trinity-Spadina and Toronto Centre are overwhelmingly opposed to the idea.

So are you suggesting that the government should impose a megacasino over an unwilling affluent population in the most prosperous part of the city so that we can help out underperforming sectors of our economy? How bloody communist of you.

Here's a shocking idea, let downtown continue to create jobs like it has over the past decade and let's focus our efforts elsewhere. This casino is just an attempt to steal more money from Toronto and distribute it around the province.

I demand a study showing how much money the city would make if instead of a casino we got an Eaton Centre type development with a convention centre, a planetarium, 2 office towers, 2 residential towers, and a new hotel where MTCC currently sits. Otherwise we may as well give sole-sourced contracts to everyone, and no one with any business experience would do that.

Scarborough voted overwhelmingly for subways and they're getting LRTs.

 

[ttk77]

In that document 'Toronto' includes Mississauga, Oakville, Markham, Vaughan, Brampton, Richmond Hill, Aurora, Newmarket, etc. does it not?

And according to this downtown Toronto actually has the fastest job growth in the City of Toronto. Etobicoke (Ford's jewel and home to Woodbine racetrack) was the only part of Toronto to have less jobs in 2011 than in 2006.

At the Cityplace resident's association there was a vote where only one in about 100 people voted in favour of a casino. I believe that people in Trinity-Spadina and Toronto Centre are overwhelmingly opposed to the idea.

So are you suggesting that the government should impose a megacasino over an unwilling affluent population in the most prosperous part of the city so that we can help out underperforming sectors of our economy? How bloody communist of you.

Here's a shocking idea, let downtown continue to create jobs like it has over the past decade and let's focus our efforts elsewhere. This casino is just an attempt to steal more money from Toronto and distribute it around the province.

I demand a study showing how much money the city would make if instead of a casino we got an Eaton Centre type development with a convention centre, a planetarium, 2 office towers, 2 residential towers, and a new hotel where MTCC currently sits. Otherwise we may as well give sole-sourced contracts to everyone, and no one with any business experience would do that.

I'm fairly neutral on the issue of a casino, and I'm definitely not trying to call you a NIMBY here, but I am curious as to your opinion on how the local opposition to a casino in this area differs from the much derided opposition of the York Quay Residents Assoication to the 10 York tower.

 

[RC8]

Scarborough voted overwhelmingly for subways and they're getting LRTs.

How did they propose to pay for their subways?

 

[RC8]

I'm fairly neutral on the issue of a casino, and I'm definitely not trying to call you a NIMBY here, but I am curious as to your opinion on how the local opposition to a casino in this area differs from the much derided opposition of the York Quay Residents Assoication to the 10 York tower.

No one is complaining about how building over a parking lot will block the view of the CN Tower, for example.

I don't think the people opposing this are necessarily against development or against casinos, but the way this particular process is being carried out is disturbing. It seems like the last thing on the proponents' minds is the well-being of Toronto's residents. And the well-being of people should be central to planning of projects this scale.

The OLG are just throwing a bone to the municipality so that they can suck money out of downtown Toronto regardless of any negative consequences. They have invested millions of dollars to sway public opinion and will invest millions more to try and hook up young urban professionals with gambling. None of the proponents of this casino care if surrounding neighbourhoods suffer due to increased crime, etc. and they haven't offered any evidence to suggest they wouldn't. They don't care if they make surrounding businesses go bankrupt, and they don't care if they scare business away from Toronto's downtown.

That Front St. strip has a very bright future regardless of whether a casino gets built, and downtown Toronto will continue growing and generating jobs regardless. If we focus on building a great city with strong inclusive neighbourhoods we will be doing everyone a favour. This talk of casinos and ferris wheels is obviously coming from people who don't know a thing about city building (see Woodbine Live! for reference).

 

[ttk77]

No one is complaining about how building over a parking lot will block the view of the CN Tower, for example.

I don't think the people opposing this are necessarily against development or against casinos, but the way this particular process is being carried out is disturbing. It seems like the last thing on the proponents' minds is the well-being of Toronto's residents. And the well-being of people should be central to planning of projects this scale.

The OLG are just throwing a bone to the municipality so that they can suck money out of downtown Toronto regardless of any negative consequences. They have invested millions of dollars to sway public opinion and will invest millions more to try and hook up young urban professionals with gambling. None of the proponents of this casino care if surrounding neighbourhoods suffer due to increased crime, etc. and they haven't offered any evidence to suggest they wouldn't. They don't care if they make surrounding businesses go bankrupt, and they don't care if they scare business away from Toronto's downtown.

That Front St. strip has a very bright future regardless of whether a casino gets built, and downtown Toronto will continue growing and generating jobs regardless. If we focus on building a great city with strong inclusive neighbourhoods we will be doing everyone a favour. This talk of casinos and ferris wheels is obviously coming from people who don't know a thing about city building (see Woodbine Live! for reference).

Understood, and I agree that the primary concerns of the involved parties is for making the most profit and not for the well-being of the neighbourhood, and I also believe that the consequences should be studied and understood as much as possible before undertaking a project like this. What isn't clear to me at this point is whether or not any of the potential negative consequences you mentioned are real. In every discussion on here that I've seen so far it's come down to a chicken vs. egg thing. What comes first, the dilapidated, crime-ridden neighbourhood or the casino.

I guess my own feeling on the matter is that objection to the casino purely based on a simple objection to gambling is NIMBYism and should be ignored. What we need is some objective data that shows the actual impact of casinos on their surrounding neighbourhoods in other cities. Is there anyone on the opposing side actually looking at this and making data/fact based arguments? If not then they're no better than the pro-casino side who are making their own arguments without any supporting evidence. It becomes a stalemate of unsupported arguments and the end result will be based on the opinion of the majority rather than actual fact.

 

[RC8]

I guess my own feeling on the matter is that objection to the casino purely based on a simple objection to gambling is NIMBYism and should be ignored. What we need is some objective data that shows the actual impact of casinos on their surrounding neighbourhoods in other cities. Is there anyone on the opposing side actually looking at this and making data/fact based arguments? If not then they're no better than the pro-casino side who are making their own arguments without any supporting evidence. It becomes a stalemate of unsupported arguments and the end result will be based on the opinion of the majority rather than actual fact.

I agree with you, but the problem is that it's a very unequal fight. The OLG and each of the casino corporations have made millionaire investments in pro-casino propaganda, but those of us who are sceptical have no way of funding studies to further explore potential negative impacts, or even the positive impacts of developing the land differently! In any case, the onus should be on them to prove that a casino is not harmful if they want legislative changes to support one.

I'm adhering to the precautionary principle here, since we know that casinos have the potential to offset the healthy development of our downtown neighbourhoods, and all that these billionaire proponents have come up with to support this development are batches of incoherent propaganda focused on 'unionised-jobs', variable profit margins, and render porn.

In all of the GTA, downtown Toronto is the only place that's getting it 'right' at the moment. Instead of redistributing their profit through this casino trap, we should be reforming our chronically under-performing suburbs and empowering municipalities (and former municipalities) to become dynamic centres for growth.

 

[PinkLucy]

I agree with you, but the problem is that it's a very unequal fight. The OLG and each of the casino corporations have made millionaire investments in pro-casino propaganda, but those of us who are sceptical have no way of funding studies to further explore potential negative impacts, or even the positive impacts of developing the land differently! In any case, the onus should be on them to prove that a casino is not harmful if they want legislative changes to support one.

Studies have been done and referenced earlier in this thread ... (too busy to chase them down at the moment)

 

[DavidJamesTO]

I think very little. The wheels are already in motion. Stopping them would mean Wynne would have to alienate quite a few stakeholders.

Plus there is the question of whether ANY Ontario premier can overrule a legal process on the basis of personal beliefs or political calculations. It's not democratic (which is not to say such things don't happen unofficially, behind closed doors and so on).

I think Wynne is making empty non-commital statements while she works out which stance will be most politically advantageous to her.

Something she should watch out for in the wake of the Mississauga power plant. I don't think they could endure the bad press of cancelling both, no matter how much opposition each project receives/ed.

 

[datamouse]

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2013/02/01/where_toronto_councillors_stand_on_a_casino.html
Considering the council vote doesn't involve where a propose casino will go it looks like it'll be a long shot it'll ever get approved.

 

[TOperson]

What isn't clear to me at this point is whether or not any of the potential negative consequences you mentioned are real. In every discussion on here that I've seen so far it's come down to a chicken vs. egg thing. What comes first, the dilapidated, crime-ridden neighbourhood or the casino.

What we need is some objective data that shows the actual impact of casinos on their surrounding neighbourhoods in other cities. Is there anyone on the opposing side actually looking at this and making data/fact based arguments? If not then they're no better than the pro-casino side who are making their own arguments without any supporting evidence. It becomes a stalemate of unsupported arguments and the end result will be based on the opinion of the majority rather than actual fact.

Oh for heaven's sake, google "casino impacts" or similar terms and a ton of quality research will come up. There are academics who specialize in exactly this. No Casino Toronto has linked some of the research. You can be sure that every community that considers a casino has exactly the same debate Toronto is having now. The information is there, you just have to look for it.

 

[TOperson]

Why ban things is my question... I like to smoke, drink and gamble in moderation.. Why should I be penalized for certain people's inability to control themselves?

Just like Trudeau famously said that the government has no place in the nation's bedrooms; neither does the government have a place in people's life choices.

You're not being penalized. No one NEEDS to gamble. It's not a human right.

For non-addicts, it's just entertainment. Find something else to do.