Officially Unofficial Metrolinx Regional Transportation Plan Thread

[unimaginative2]

Yeah, but Dentrobate, only a tiny number of people are going to ride the subway from Kennedy to Square One. Anyway, I agree that diverting the Milton GO line north to Square One, with frequent service (~15 minutes), would be a much better option.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ The only people that ever seem to do that kind of random cross-GTA trip are students (UTM, UTSC, Humber, Centennial, etc.) who don't have a car (and wouldn't/couldn't spend the money on GO fares, too, even if GO was useful for them). I know several people that go/went to Humber and lived well east of Yonge...let's just say they got a lot of reading done each day!

 

[DENTROBATE54]

^ The only people that ever seem to do that kind of random cross-GTA trip are students (UTM, UTSC, Humber, Centennial, etc.) who don't have a car (and wouldn't/couldn't spend the money on GO fares, too, even if GO was useful for them). I know several people that go/went to Humber and lived well east of Yonge...let's just say they got a lot of reading done each day!

Yeah, you've got me totally pegged. I commute from the Queen/Main area of Brampton to UTSC, three times a week. Sometimes I take the GO but usually when it's an afternoon class I try to use local routes as two tickets (BT+TTC) only costs $4.45 whereas one-way GO is $6.25 +TTC fare. I'd do alot of studying while on the bus with my headphones on ! It usually takes me three hours via routes 52 McMurchy, 11 Steeles, 191 Hwy 27, BD+SRT and 38 Highland Creek. Now that Reading Week's over I'll be sure to try out this new GO route CDL told me about via the 407 that should get me to school within 90 mins.

I know long commuters such as myself don't comprise a bulk of daily ridership but we are a reliable set that transit operators should accomodate via express routes throughout the GTA.

Anyway, I agree that diverting the Milton GO line north to Square One, with frequent service (~15 minutes), would be a much better option.

If the Milton line ran trains 3 per hour, 20 hours a day, I'd totally support that over an extension of BD beyond Sherway Gdns.

 

[doady]

How is GO a better option? I estimate that a subway trip from Langstaff to Union would take 35-40 minutes. GO's schedule indicates that the trip time from Langstaff to Union by train is also 35 minutes. This is one of the very few cases where the subway is actually as fast, if not faster than the GO train. GO travels about 40 km/h for the entire trip south of Lawrence, at which point it has veered all the way east to Victoria Park.

It's also worth mentioning that while Langstaff may not be in Toronto, it's not exactly very far. Taking the subway to Langstaff would be a 6km shorter trip than going to the end of the SRT. In fact, Langstaff and Kennedy stations are approximately equidistant from Yonge and Bloor following the route of each subway line.

- Square One to Yonge/Bloor distance: 21.4 km
- Langstaff to Yonge/Bloor distance: 18.9 km

Is this a big difference? Your call. These distance alone don't tell the whole story of course, since the GTA grew mostly to the west.

I'm not saying I don't support the Yonge subway extension (because I do support it), I only find it annoying that people somehow think that York Region is somehow more suited for a subway, let alone two, than Mississauga is. There is no valid reasoning for this kind of thinking. If anything, Mississauga is better suited for subway extension.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Is Mississauga better suited for a subway extension than York Region is? The answer, yes and no.

While I find the Hurontario and Eglinton West corridors already highly suitable for subways, it'll take something other than a 100+ km BD line to achieve it. You also have to consider the large gap between Hwy 427 and Hurontario. If we're contending with several kms of sprawl like that, it's better to route commuter rail NOT subways. The Milton Line, achieves this largely and can be S-Bahnned to Square One.

On the other hand, Finch is a mere two kilometres from Steeles so extension is more feasible. There's also considerable density north of Steeles as far as 19th/Gamble while this subway extension's only going to Hwy 7. For what can't be served by subways, we can boost service via BRT and LRT.

 

[Chuck]

For the record, I see nothing wrong with a Hurontario subway. Connecting it to Toronto is where things start to get sketchy though because the trip just gets too long.

Can anyone comment on the relatively connectedness of Mississauga to Etobicoke? Is there a high demand for non work trips between the two? I know from growing up in Thornhill that just about everyone had doctors, friends, family, or went to movie theatres and restaurants in Willowdale and midtown. There's a massive demand for non work, non downtown trips between midtown, Willowdale and Thornhill. The three areas are extremely intertwined.

 

[Dan416]

Honestly I find the anti-Mississauga bias to be quite bizarre. Mississauga is highly connected to Toronto. Hurontario & Burnhamthorpe is 24.3 km from Yonge & Bloor according to Google Maps (using Avoid Highways option). No one can tell me 24.3 km is too far for a subway to go. SCC is 19.3 km from Yonge & Bloor according to Google Maps (again using Avoid Highways option). That makes for a 45 km (Dundas-)Bloor-Danforth subway, not 100 km as DENTROBATE54 has claimed. Big difference there. As for the so-called big gap between the 427 and Hurontario--just, huh? Eastern Mississauga is probably the densest part of the GTA outside the 416. Just, WTF? And Dundas? Can you say ripe for redevelopment? As for GO trains hourly on the Milton line, we need that TOO. Not one or the other. Some people need to get to Union. Some need to get to Dixie. Some need to get to Islington. Some need to get to Dundas West. Some need St. George. or whatever.

Sometimes I find doady's views extreme and/or negative. But on this count he's totally correct. You'd think people would want to change the name of this forum to "Urban Toronto Specifically Excluding Only Mississauga"

 

[EnviroTO]

Extensions into York region are being looked at because of where the current terminus of the subway lines are located relative to where the major transit nodes in York region are located. For example, the extension to York U of the University Line puts the line less than 3km from the planned Vaughan Corporate Centre on the VIVA corridor. The current terminus of the Yonge line is only 2km from the York region border and 6km from Langstaff and would reduce the distance 7 regular YRT routes (not including rush hour routes), 2 VIVA routes, and a GO bus route would travel and would connect to east-west GO and VIVA routes plus a rail station at Langstaff. This compares to a distance of about 10-11 km to extend the line to Square One (a longer extension than the others) along a route which would not reduce the trip distance for many routes since there is no common corridor used to get to Kipling west of 427 (i.e. some routes come from the 427, some from Burnhamthorpe, some from Bloor, and some from Dundas) and parallels a GO line on one section which with service improvements would duplicate the service provided by the subway extension and a on the other section parallels a future north-south LRT which would duplicate the service provided.

I think it is telling that the transit priorities for Mississauga are a north-south BRT/LRT route on Hurontario and a busway along the 403 and Eglinton and NOT a route which runs down Hurontario to Dundas and then follows Dundas to the subway. That isn't where the demand is obviously. This contrasts to York regions priorities which exactly follow the path of the expected subway extensions.

If there was an Eglinton Line currently which ended at Renforth or Martin Grove an extension to Square One would be a no brainer, but duplicating the path of a railway line to Cooksville and then swinging north and duplicating the north-south LRT that would likely be built doesn't make as much sense as building a 3km extension from a University to a business centre, or a 6km extension along a path with a multitude of bus routes and no other competition from rail or light rail.

 

[Le Gique]

perhaps the supposed prevailing sentiment here merely echoes the fact that York Region wants subways and Mrs. Saga has been way less enthusiastic.

-and why look further than Hazel herself? wot's her history on seeking higher-order transit connections with TTC?

-as it is, all she's building right now is a BRT (for GO Transit) that leads to where? the Airport Corporate Centre and Rob Ford's ward?

 

[CDL.TO]

Honestly I find the anti-Mississauga bias to be quite bizarre. Mississauga is highly connected to Toronto. Hurontario & Burnhamthorpe is 24.3 km from Yonge & Bloor according to Google Maps (using Avoid Highways option). No one can tell me 24.3 km is too far for a subway to go. SCC is 19.3 km from Yonge & Bloor according to Google Maps (again using Avoid Highways option). That makes for a 45 km (Dundas-)Bloor-Danforth subway, not 100 km as DENTROBATE54 has claimed. Big difference there. As for the so-called big gap between the 427 and Hurontario--just, huh? Eastern Mississauga is probably the densest part of the GTA outside the 416. Just, WTF? And Dundas? Can you say ripe for redevelopment? As for GO trains hourly on the Milton line, we need that TOO. Not one or the other. Some people need to get to Union. Some need to get to Dixie. Some need to get to Islington. Some need to get to Dundas West. Some need St. George. or whatever.

Here we go again. Just because some people say that Mississauga isn't the best place for a traditional subway line and alternatives should be looked at doesn't mean we're all biased against Mississauga. Some of us who argue this are from Mississauga, some spent much time there (for example, although I didn't live in Mississauga, both of my parents were employed there).

You just need to wrap your head around an idea... regional rail. Something that exists in New York and every damn city over 250,000 in Europe. Basically, we're saying WE WANT MISSISSAUGA TO HAVE A SUBWAY, and we want it to have the following characteristics:
- We don't want it to take over an hour to get people downtown.
- The way Mississauga has grown and will grow, we need transit to go further than MCC.
- We want it to serve the thousands upon thousands of people and jobs in Erindale, Erin Mills, Meadowvale, and beyond. And we want to make it easier for people in Erindale, Erin Mills, and Meadowvale to reach MCC.
- We don't want it to overload the already crowded Bloor line (the second busiest line from downtown after the Yonge line).

This does not mean a GO train every hour. It means a subway-train-like train running every 20 minutes or better. Adding two new tracks to the Milton Line for dedicated transit usage, with a re-route through MCC would allow for higher-capacity, faster, more attractive, more affordable transit operation than simply extending Bloor-Danforth line. It could be just like a Bloor-Danforth extension, only running express from Kipling onwards.

It's not a simple hierarchy of subway>GO train>streetcar>bus... it's about choosing what can provide the best transit service for the purpose. And regional rail is the best mode for regional trips. Mississauga, Brampton, Durham, Oakville, Burlington, they all need frequent higher-order transit. Subway cannot serve all these needs. There's no existing regional rail equivalent for Yonge (don't say Richmond Hill GO, which runs through a valley parkland for almost its entire route). And for that matter you won't see me defending the VCC extension, I think Woodbridgeites would be far more likely to ride an upgraded Barrie or Bolton GO line.

I'll finish off with a comparison of Toronto to Berlin. Berlin's subway moves 457 million people per year, while their regional rail system moves 375 million, 18% less. Toronto's subway moves 1.2 million people per weekday, while GO trains (which are commuter rail, NOT regional rail) move 170,000, or 86% less.

There's a lot of room for growth in GTA-wide rail service.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

- We don't want it to overload the already crowded Bloor line (the second busiest line from downtown after the Yonge line).

I find it interesting that the Bloor line (west of St. George) was actually carrying more people than the Yonge line (north of Bloor) when the Sheppard line opened in 2003. Since then, Yonge's ridership went up by 50,000 per day while Bloor's dropped slightly. Really, though, they're both at their practical capacities.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Honestly I find the anti-Mississauga bias to be quite bizarre. Mississauga is highly connected to Toronto. Hurontario & Burnhamthorpe is 24.3 km from Yonge & Bloor according to Google Maps (using Avoid Highways option). No one can tell me 24.3 km is too far for a subway to go. SCC is 19.3 km from Yonge & Bloor according to Google Maps (again using Avoid Highways option). That makes for a 45 km (Dundas-)Bloor-Danforth subway, not 100 km as DENTROBATE54 has claimed. Big difference there. As for the so-called big gap between the 427 and Hurontario--just, huh? Eastern Mississauga is probably the densest part of the GTA outside the 416. Just, WTF? And Dundas? Can you say ripe for redevelopment? As for GO trains hourly on the Milton line, we need that TOO. Not one or the other. Some people need to get to Union. Some need to get to Dixie. Some need to get to Islington. Some need to get to Dundas West. Some need St. George. or whatever.

Sometimes I find doady's views extreme and/or negative. But on this count he's totally correct. You'd think people would want to change the name of this forum to "Urban Toronto Specifically Excluding Only Mississauga"

I didn't mean 100 kms as a literal suggestion, but rather that we're going down a slippery slope of over-indulgence by asserting every outcrop on the fringe needs a subway umbilical cord to downtown Toronto. When does rationality and reason factor and trigger in ? Not surprising Dundas East and most arterial roads though that area are suburban sprawl as they are car-oriented. This is the most inhospitable locale for a subway line. Has the mess that is Kipling Stn thought us nothing? Hydro corridors and post-industrial/neo-Big Box widespreads has everything and yet nothing. Nothing's in a central location whereby immediate density and guaranteed daily patronage for subway stops is dependible.

There's also the planned route according to Transit Toronto which would largely mimic the Milton Line all the way to Hurontario. If all we're going to do is piggyback on the GO network, why not for far less money and service obstruction (and land expropiation and environmental assessments and elapsed years to a decade before completion by which time a subway might not even be viable) just S-Bahn the GO through the MCC area?

Mississauga would be far better sticking to the GO services and BRT for a Toronto link. If density's an indicator, if ever Peel gets a subway it should route along Hurontario and Eglinton West preferably as one single line whereby hitting all the major nodes of Port Credit, Cooksville, MCC, Erindale, Erin Mills, etc.

 

[Dan416]

I didn't mean 100 kms as a literal suggestion, but rather that we're going down a slippery slope of over-indulgence by asserting every outcrop on the fringe needs a subway umbilical cord to downtown Toronto. When does rationality and reason factor and trigger in ? Not surprising Dundas East and most arterial roads though that area are suburban sprawl as they are car-oriented. This is the most inhospitable locale for a subway line. Has the mess that is Kipling Stn thought us nothing? Hydro corridors and post-industrial/neo-Big Box widespreads has everything and yet nothing. Nothing's in a central location whereby immediate density and guaranteed daily patronage for subway stops is dependible.

There's also the planned route according to Transit Toronto which would largely mimic the Milton Line all the way to Hurontario. If all we're going to do is piggyback on the GO network, why not for far less money and service obstruction (and land expropiation and environmental assessments and elapsed years to a decade before completion by which time a subway might not even be viable) just S-Bahn the GO through the MCC area?

Mississauga would be far better sticking to the GO services and BRT for a Toronto link. If density's an indicator, if ever Peel gets a subway it should route along Hurontario and Eglinton West preferably as one single line whereby hitting all the major nodes of Port Credit, Cooksville, MCC, Erindale, Erin Mills, etc.

Environmental assessments are now limited to 6 months, remember. And a subway in Mississauga should run under Dundas, not follow the Milton line. Dundas east of Hurontario is probably denser than any part of York Region. There's literally hundreds of apartments along Bloor St in Mississauga. The demand is there. And as I've said probably ten thousand times, an S-Bahn to Union would probably not help most of these people. Anyone who would use that are probably already taking GO.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Dundas east of Hurontario is probably denser than any part of York Region.

Not the Denison area in Markham, or along Yonge in Richmond Hill...or Vaughan (the Thornhill part). Hurontario trumps them all, of course.

 

[doady]

Dentrobate, there are no hydro corridors along Dundas, except maybe at Cawthra, I don't remember. Almost the entire corridor is free to be redeveloped. If it was in Toronto, it would designated as one of the Avenues for sure - it is instead designated as a "Community Improvement Area", Mississauga's equivalent of an Avenue (Mississauga always try to be separate from Toronto).

I'll finish off with a comparison of Toronto to Berlin. Berlin's subway moves 457 million people per year, while their regional rail system moves 375 million, 18% less. Toronto's subway moves 1.2 million people per weekday, while GO trains (which are commuter rail, NOT regional rail) move 170,000, or 86% less.

There's a lot of room for growth in GTA-wide rail service.

There is also a lot of room for growth in subway service as well, why ignore subway expansion? Improvements to the Milton line is not going to solve everything, likewise for the Yonge subway in York. If you fear an subway extensions will cause even more overcrowding, there is no reason, aside form lack of funding, not to build alternative subway lines or improve the regional rail service at the same time.

What is the answer to transit problem of the GTA? It is not regional rail, it is not subways, it is not LRT, and it sure as hell isn't more buses. The correct answer to the problem is "all of the above."

The bottom line is that all aspects of our transit system is inadequate. The subway is too small and overcrowded, the commuter rail service is non-existent, and streetcar/bus service is sparse, slow and/or infrequent. All need serious expansion and improvement.

I think it is wrong to advocate for just one type of transit, which is why I don't like Transit City at all.